The Great Hybrid (Flowerhorn) Debate

[eklikewhoa]

So it would be like man mating with monkeys to create a hybrid...

[marauder_77868]

Well...I kind of take issue with both. I think that intentional cross breeding between species is irresponsible and many of those same people tend to be irresponsible with the culls. I think that man-made hybrids tend to thwart conservation for the reasons I gave in my very first post. I can't seem to get the point across though about one thing. You keep mentioning dogs. It's not comparable. The different dog breeds are not hybrids. Dog breeds are the result of line breeding within one species. Those two things are very different. It's like saying that the process to make veil angels is the same as that for making Flowerhorns. It's just not the case.

[eklikewhoa]

True that either fish will cause problems in an un natural environment but I guess you could say it's like the whole pitbull debate.

To me I see it like releasing a pitbull into a community to run wild.... now who wants to see that?

[Kiovo]

with or without hybrids, people are already dumping fish into lakes and rivers where they did not originate from. If someone releases a hybrid fish into the wild that fish will cause the same havoc as someone releasing a non native "natural" fish to the area.

[jeebus]

As you stated Jeebus, The FH are being released and are thriving.

Now with that happening what and how does that effect the organisms arlready there or are now being replaced by the FH? How much further does it go before someone says it's enough? Animals tend to migrate, humans help that a great deal so if it's ok to happen in the Orients who's to say it won't happen everywhere?

I think this is the point of Charle's thread... to conserve what we have now since the introduction of Hybrids also come with a lot of careless actions.

To which I agree:

Introducing any new plant/creature into a new environment is dangerous and irresponsible - I'm not arguing that.

I guess I'm just unable to determine if he takes issue with cross-breeding, or the collateral damage it may cause. Or both?

[eklikewhoa]

As you stated Jeebus, The FH are being released and are thriving.

Now with that happening what and how does that effect the organisms arlready there or are now being replaced by the FH? How much further does it go before someone says it's enough? Animals tend to migrate, humans help that a great deal so if it's ok to happen in the Orients who's to say it won't happen everywhere?

I think this is the point of Charle's thread... to conserve what we have now since the introduction of Hybrids also come with a lot of careless actions.

[jisatsuguy]

how many foods do we eat that are a result of some type of unnatural occurance? i mean, jumbo eggs, cows that produce more milk, hmmm kobe beef?

[jeebus]

Introducing any new plant/creature into a new environment is dangerous and irresponsible - I'm not arguing that.

[jeebus]

You're kidding, right? Does that mean any fish that I throw in the lake that survives is now in its natural habitat? The Flowerhorn has no natural habitat.

If you introduce something to a new environment and it adapts to that environment and flourishes by reproducing and thriving - then that is its new natural habitat.

Fire ants are a great example. They are not native to North America, but guess what EVERYONE has in their yard? Fire ants. This has become their natural habitat. The fact that they are not "hybrids" has nothing to do with this point. I specifically answering your quoted question above.

Let me explain further...I'm talking about intentional, man-made hybrids. That's not the case with dogs or cows. The cats I don't know enought about. I'm talking about hybrids that are produced on someone's fish farm or in someone's basement.

Many different breeds of cats & dogs were created through man-made breeding techniques beginning with Kings and Pharaohs wanting the best of the best for themselves.

Even further, plants have been inter-species cross-bred so that they will grow bigger, produce more fruit, and become more resistant to harsh climate changes, predators, and pestilence.

To think that now that its happening in the fish hobby world that its a sin or crime against nature is preposterous. The precedence has be set in all other areas of mother-nature.

[marauder_77868]

I would consider that to be their wild since they have no wild from which they came.

You're kidding, right? Does that mean any fish that I throw in the lake that survives is now in its natural habitat? The Flowerhorn has no natural habitat.

The discussion of other flora & fauna keep getting introduced because they are examples that in nature, there has been cross-breeding - spontaneous or induced.

Let me explain further...I'm talking about intentional, man-made hybrids. That's not the case with dogs or cows. The cats I don't know enought about. I'm talking about hybrids that are produced on someone's fish farm or in someone's basement.

[jeebus]

Tattooed/mutilated fish are not the same as a crossbred hybrid.

Per reports all over the web, flowerhorns are being released into the local waterways in southeast Asia (because its bad luck to kill them) and they are flourishing. I would consider that to be their wild since they have no wild from which they came.

The discussion of other flora & fauna keep getting introduced because they are examples that in nature, there has been cross-breeding - spontaneous or induced.

[marauder_77868]

then I would believe they would fit your criteria for what makes a species.

Let me clarify...fish that would interbreed in the wild, which in someone's tank at the house is not. Please tell me where I can find Flowerhorns in their natural habitat. I LOVE working with wild caught fish. While we're at it, I'm also looking for the origin point of Cichlasoma sp "Heart Tattoo"

[marauder_77868]

I had brought up education and conservation as issues I thought imprtant to this debate. We're not trying to conserve the wild environment of the Persian or the French Bulldog. That's why I couched things in the terms that I did. All the stuff about dogs and cates is very interesting, but I'm not sure it's relative to the Flowerhorn discussion

[jeebus]

The definition of a species is not just can they have viable offspring, but also, given the natural situation (in the wild) will they interbreed?

If they are being released into the local waterways and are taking over the local biotope by reproducing, then I would believe they would fit your criteria for what makes a species.

[katytropheus]

As mentioned earlier on dogs, have you seen the Westminister Dog Show recently on the variations of breeds? Or cats on two gorgeous breeds, Bengal = Asian Leopard Cat and domestic and my favorite at about 35-40 pounds, Savannah = African Serval and domestic. Sort of like the flowerhorn in pricing, relatively speaking. F-1 Savannah, try about $3-4K. You walk them just like a dog, of course they can be a handful.