The Great Hybrid (Flowerhorn) Debate

[marauder_77868]

The definition of a species is not just can they have viable offspring, but also, given the natural situation (in the wild) will they interbreed?

[Kiovo]

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=different-dog-breeds-same-species

But among dogs, which are well known for their hybrid (or mongrel) varieties, different breeds can mate and have viable offspring, so they are all found under the umbrella of a single species, Canis familiaris.

Humans are the ones that determine what to label each "species" and whether they are the same species or different.

[Kiovo]

I think Jeebus was refering to things being "pure" and "not pure". There are several animals that are hybridized, wolves and dogs, horses and donkeys...and whether you agree with it or not, they are here, and they're probably here to stay. I'm not one to shun something just because it's different. It's still a living creature that deserves the same care and feels the same pain as any other living thing.

[marauder_77868]

The flowerhorn is to fish crossbreeding what the Bulldog is dog crossbreeding.

This isnt true. Flowerhorns are made up of two (or more) different SPECIES. All dogs, whether Chihuahua or Mastiff, are the same SPECIES. The Flowerhorn scenario would be comparable to breeding the Bulldog to a Red Fox, two different species, but both within the Canidae family, just as all the cichlid species are within the Cichlidae family.

Look at my daughter. She's a Caucasian/Asian crossbreed. Nothing weird, mutant, or deformed in her.

That's true...but the point is that she has two HUMAN parents. Asian and Caucasian are not two different species. You need to make the distinction between crossbred and hybridized. A hybrid is formed from two (or more) different species. The hamburger is made of only one species, the cow (please don't make me look up the scientific name for the cow). This isn't about semantics. THere are fundamental differences with the examples you are using and what I'm talking about.

[finfan]

Look at my daughter. She's a Caucasian/Asian crossbreed.

.....Its already here. Doctors are experimenting with gene therapy to alter your child's physical appearance before the mother is impregnated.

i wouldn't say caucasian/asian is a crossbreed... we are all humans

and yes its sad that doctor's and more importantly parents are doing that

[jeebus]

The key is in your words...THAT animal. They are typically breeding for selective traits within a single species. Flowerhorns cross that line....at least for me anyway.

How so? Its not like turtles and fish were cross-bred. The flowerhorn is not some mutant that is half fish and half non-fish. Its 100% fish, with shared genes of its predecessors - other fish. The flowerhorn is to fish crossbreeding what the Bulldog is dog crossbreeding.

EVERYTHING is cross-bred now. From plants to humans. Nothing is "pure". Look at my daughter. She's a Caucasian/Asian crossbreed. Nothing weird, mutant, or deformed in her. Next time you take a bite out of your Big Mac & throwback your catsup ladened french-fries remember that you'll be eating cross-bred cattle, cross-bred potatoes, and cross-bred tomatoes. Everything is crossbred.

Its when we start focusing on "purity" we risk ending up like a certain 1930's or 1970's regime.

lets take this to a new level... what would happen if we start... line breeding or hybridizing people to get the desired "features" in us...

i know many of you will think i'm crazy to say such a thing, but i think if we stop thinking about consequences of our choices... one day this might not be beyond the realm of possibility

Its already here. Doctors are experimenting with gene therapy to alter your child's physical appearance before the mother is impregnated. Gattaca has arrived.

[finfan]

lets take this to a new level... what would happen if we start... line breeding or hybridizing people to get the desired "features" in us...

i know many of you will think i'm crazy to say such a thing, but i think if we stop thinking about consequences of our choices... one day this might not be beyond the realm of possibility

[marauder_77868]

to fit what they need/want in that animal.

The key is in your words...THAT animal. They are typically breeding for selective traits within a single species. Flowerhorns cross that line....at least for me anyway.

whatever the case, its up to the owners to determine if the "new" animal is right for them.

Exactly correct...which is why my original post, although multi-purposed, was designed to be educational. Because I know that there is a lot of mis-information out there, as Delock mentioned previously.

[Kiovo]

Their are several fishes that make up the flowerhorn. It didn't start out with 2 fish put together and bam, you have a flowerhorn. The exact origin of the flowerhorn is still kept a secret. And yes I know they haven't been around "ten thousand" years. They haven't even been around for 20 years. It comes down to, people breed animals, (whether it be dogs, cats, horses, or fish), to fit what they need/want in that animal. Whether it be for looks, medical, usefulness, whatever the case, its up to the owners to determine if the "new" animal is right for them.

[marauder_77868]

Yeah...it's a pretty sad state of affairs.

[Delock]

^^^^^^^

I heard someone say something along those lines in a lfs one day. The person who said it was an lfs employee.

[marauder_77868]

If you're getting it from the same people who believe the fish has existed for ten thousand years and they have magical properties then you might want to expand your sources!

[eklikewhoa]

Yeah that's what I thought too.... something about being sterile or something.

Now this would also depend on where you get your information.

[marauder_77868]

What about fighting bettas?

I mean its their natural instinct.....

There are a whole lot of moral issues with fish that might deserve their own threads.

[marauder_77868]

Flowerhorns weren't created in a lab, they were just breed over and over again until the desire results were created.

Are you sure about that? The original species used do not readily hybridize, to my knowledge.