The Great Hybrid (Flowerhorn) Debate

[eklikewhoa]

What about fighting bettas?

I mean its their natural instinct.....

[Kiovo]

Yes, when getting into specifics it's two different things but both are after the same outcome.... to get something they want that would not readily occur naturally.

I concur. I did as much reading as I could find about flowerhorns before getting one. And I think that's what everyone should do and come to their own conclusion if a hybridize fish is something they want to keep. Flowerhorns weren't created in a lab, they were just breed over and over again until the desire results were created.

[jeebus]

lol... Well, there's just not really that much to discuss.

[eklikewhoa]

I guess no one wants to get into this discussion.

[eklikewhoa]

Yes, when getting into specifics it's two different things but both are after the same outcome.... to get something they want that would not readily occur naturally.

[marauder_77868]

That's true...but line breeding has been around since at least the 9th century...I don't think we're going to be able to make too much change in that realm. Besides....everything we breed in an aquarium is technically line breeding. And the genetic weakening is precisely why line-breeders value wild caught stock...to breed their lines back to for vigor. The other thing that I look at is the process is different. In hybridization we are mixing two different species to create something that isn't either one of them. In line breeding it is the same species being used, just specific traits being selected for. Somewhat the same results but a far different process to reach them.

[eklikewhoa]

Personally... I have seen a lot worst then flowerhorns.

I myself would probably never buy one unless it was a super impulse.

For the sake of argument though I will say that with all the non-hybrid fish out there that are being altered without being responsible about it is not the way to go and from the way things are going the only way to keep it from happening is to not have it done in the first place.

On the other hand though if one were to argue for the sake of not hybridizing fish then should we not rule out line breeding as well? To me in a sense they are two of the same. Hybridizing introduces a new fish with volatile genetics into the trade while Line bred fish have their genetics weakened down the line and then introduced into the trade with weak traits and the possibility of being more susceptable to common problems.

[marauder_77868]

I copied this from another topic because it seemed to warrant its own thread....so have at it!

Ok...let me start off by saying that I in no way want people to think the comments I'm about to make are disparaging people who keep Flowerhorns (hybrids). I would rather they be taken in the manner which I intend, which is to further education and conservation.

There are so many species, true species, of beautiful fish available, especially cichlids. The VAST majority of Flowerhorns come from the far east. More specifically, they come from the same places that offer the dyed, tattooed, surgically altered, and otherwise mutilated fish that we, as a community, seem to despise. So in a way, when you purchase a Flowerhorn, you're supporting those who would mutiliate other fish in the name of the almighty dollar. Furthermore, their practices of culling have created an incredible problem in Malaysia, for example, where the culls have found their way into the waterways and are now decimating species of native fish. Some would argue that this isn't happening, but the reports are out there.

Setting all that aside for a moment, let's look at it from the side of conservation. Conservation of threatened fishes takes work. It takes money. But key to both of these, it takes people. People who line breed fish such as angels, discus, or really anything else that is more than one generation removed from the wild know that eventually you have to breed back to wild or near-wild fish to maintain vigor. So these people have a vested interest in maintaining wild caught fish and their habitats. Or, put in other terms, the people who provide these fishes have an interest. Such is not the case with the Flowerhorn and other hybrids. They are always trying to make something new. Hybrids are crossed with other hybrids. Very rarely are any true species used. Thus, the true species becomes somewhat obsolete. When there is no demand, there is no incentive to cause the suppliers to protect their stock.

The problem with all this is that if someone goes into a shop and sees these fish, with no knowledge of their origins, they make a decision which I feel is regrettable. They buy the hybrid. As that bulids, the store owner orders more hybrids and the problem becomes worse and worse. The natural species become less and less available. As an example let me ask a question. How hard is it to find a pure trimaculatus now?

There are so many species available to us. Why would we need to create something unnatural? We have created so many nice strains through line breeding...a process that achieves some of the same goals as hybridization without mixing species. Some may look at this as an evil as well, but line breeding has been around since at least the 9th century...so I don't think we're going to change too much on that front.

I don't want to necessarily discourage anyone from keeping anything (within reason). What I do want to do is encourage people to fully consider the ramifications of their choices. The next time you have an empty tank, consider devoting some space to maintaining something threatened in the wild or endangered. There are programs here within the state (HCCC) and nationally with the ACA that can get you started or you can contact me if you'd like and I'll get you connected with the right people to make it happen....at very little cost, I might add.

In summary again, if I may reiterate, I'm not trying to disparage anyone here, or anywhere else for that matter. I just would like to see the hobby take a different route than it's taking. The last thing that I want to see is Flowerhorns in our waterways and the state coming down our our whole industry as recourse. I'll step off of my soapbox now...thanks for taking the time to read this.

--Charles