New planted tank... fish are dying.

[Anonapersona]

Re: New planted tank... fish are dying.

First, it may be that the pleco is just such a sedentary fish that you can't tell if he is stressed.

Second, one pleco in a newly planted tank is just starting a fishless cycle. One fish can only produce so much waste, so the balance between plants and fish developed slowly. It takes a while for the fish to pollute the big tank full of fresh water, meanwhile, the plants are stripping out ammonia as fast as the lighting will allow them to run. You said the plants were growing like crazy, so they were taking in a lot of ammonia.

I'm not sure how or when you used rainwater, and it may be that one night a plane passed over and sprayed and the toxin landed on your roof. Depending on when it rained and when you collected the water, you may or may not have gotten any toxins, even if the plane did pass over your house. Another collection may be just fine. I dunno. But, you can ponder that one. I still think your issues are just cycling.

So, all was well in the tank, plants sucking up all the ammonia they could handle, then you added some sensitive fish. And fed them. So, now there is a burst of ammonia, more than the plants could handle. It may also be that the plants have begun to exhaust some of the nutritents they had stored in plant tissues. If the plants were running low on vital nutrients, at the same time ammonia increased with more fish.... you may get some ammonia, then some nitrites in the water, eventually nitrates too. So the fish look stressed.

Now, if you dump in rainwater, the change of water hardness alone can be a big thing. Conditioning fish can be critical when changing water - from the store to tap to rainwater may be too many changes. I'm not sure about the sequence of events here. I'm just listing the probably causes.

Some stores use reconstituted RO water in their tanks (Aquarium world) others use tap water. Some may use chemicals. I dunno. Always good to ask when making a purchase, unless you are pretty sure it is tap water.

Next, tend to the plants. I do hate to tell you to buy yet another thing, but Tropic Master Grow (Village Tropical or online) is a good place to start with fertilizing plants. Otherwise, you may try root fertilizers, I forget what the brand names are but do not use yard stuff, use fish tank stuff. Finally, you can order what you need from online sources, try Greg Watson.com. I do not like the typical plant fertilizers from the store, I've always gotten alage, not sure what they are too high in, but they seem unbalanced.

As for the fish, yes, I think the pleco should go back now. With only two rams left, that is not much of a load on the planted tank. Before you move them, test for water hardness. Do a water change on the planted tank so that both tanks have similar water composition, tap or rainwater, whatever. If you are worried about the rainwater, then slowly go to tap in both tanks. Now or later, when the tank waters are the same, move all fish and all filters to the new tank. Let those filters run together for a month if you can.

[Zulaab]

Re: New planted tank... fish are dying.

I attempted to feed the remaining two fish last night.
They didnt eat anything.  Its all sitting at the bottom of the aquarium.
I am going to move the pleco back into the main tank tonight.
I am wondering if I should move the rest of them back tonight too.

[Mzungu]

Re: New planted tank... fish are dying.

I agree with Anonapersona that you should test both tanks to see how the water parameters compare to one another. But, I think since you are left with 2 fish and a pleco, and all your nitrites, ammonia, and most nitrates are gone by now, you would be safe in returning all of them. Of course, acclimate them very well (long time) - they've been through a LOT over the past week or so.

If you don't move them, I would do a water change on their Qtank, especially if the food's still sitting on the bottom.

[Zulaab]

Re: New planted tank... fish are dying.

Tonight I will move all three back to their old home.  Hopefully in their old place they will start to live up a little.  I am thinking about getting some Brineshrimp on the way home to feed them.  I called Fish Land and they told me they feed them brineshrimp and bloodworms..

[Mzungu]

Re: New planted tank... fish are dying.

If you have any frozen food, they will love you for it.    Every fish I have goes crazy for bloodworms. If they're smaller, try getting the frozen Hikari bloodworms, those worms are smaller than most other brands and can be eaten by the little guys.

Brine shrimp are great, too. If you go frozen, I'd do bloodworms. If you're looking at live brine shrimp, try them! I usually keep mine for a couple of days in a little plastic container (one of those habitat things, or something similar) with an airstone so they last longer.

[Anonapersona]

Re: New planted tank... fish are dying.

I attempted to feed the remaining two fish last night.
They didnt eat anything.  Its all sitting at the bottom of the aquarium.

If the fish do not eat, you MUST remove the food. BTW, just how much food are you adding? You should feed an amount approximately equal to the size of one fish eyeball, per fish. So for 2 or three fish that is a very tiny amount!

I am going to move the pleco back into the main tank tonight.
I am wondering if I should move the rest of them back tonight too.

Please tell me about how and when you have changed water in both tanks. How do you do it? What dechlorinator do you use? How do you check water temperature?

Then tell me about your filter.

[Anonapersona]

Re: New planted tank... fish are dying.

Oh, and while frozen food is a wonderful treat, a cube will be too much for 3 small fish. Use less, chop into 1/4s and feed more only if they have eaten it all.

[Zulaab]

Re: New planted tank... fish are dying.

The last water change on the 20G planted was a couple of days ago.  I took about 7G of water out and replaced it with a mixture of rainwater and tap water.

The smaller tank (5g) has about 2G tank water from a tank I know have 0 problems, and 2g of rain water.   The Water parameters are nearly identical.  The smaller 5g tank is running a 7.6pH vs 7.8pH upstairs on the 20g.
I would like to do another water change and get some more rain water in the 20G, but that means I am going to need to goto the store and pick up some neutral water.   The 5g tank I will do a water change on it tonight and remove any and all food in it.   The pleco is going upstairs tonight without question.  He/She looks great and is zooming around and cleaning the glass.
The two Rams are swimming around and then they settle on the bottom.

[Zulaab]

Re: New planted tank... fish are dying.

If the fish do not eat, you MUST remove the food. BTW, just how much food are you adding? You should feed an amount approximately equal to the size of one fish eyeball, per fish. So for 2 or three fish that is a very tiny amount!

- I know I feed them about 10 flakes total - but they didnt even look at the food.. ie didnt taste it or anything.. Now its all on the bottom which is why I would have to do a water change asap.  (ie tonight when I get home)

Please tell me about how and when you have changed water in both tanks. How do you do it? What dechlorinator do you use? How do you check water temperature?

Then tell me about your filter.

The 20G tank is a 20G tall.   All tanks get Amquel Plus for water treatment in my house.  Water temp is checked by two methods.  I have a digital thermometer which checks constantly the temp, and I have a cheap stick on the glass thermometer.  This way I can make sure that one is not WAY off the other.  Seems to work pretty reliable.  The 20G has a 200w heater (it was on sale and I figured I would spend $1 more for a 200 over a 150.)  It holds the temp at a solid 78 degrees at all times.  The pump is a Fluval 2 Plus 105 gph internal filter.  I am running a Hagen Maxima 3500cc airpump with dual outlets running a LOT of O2 into the tank since they where basically looking like they could not get enough air ie gasping for air.    I may later cut back but not until I see an improvement.

The 5g is running a 50w heater (and sadly the temp swings about a degree from 77-78 depending on the time of day)
The filter on it is a small HOB (brand name is unknown) but from the size of it I believe it a small 20G pump - it was installed using an pad from a known good aquarium so it would already be cycled.

[Anonapersona]

Re: New planted tank... fish are dying.

water and temp looks fine.

The only thing I see is that Amquell Plus does not address nitrite. It says that it allows the biofilters to work, and does not harm plants. I know that in a planted cycle you can still get a nitrite spike, though a lot smaller than a regular cycle will produce. Water changes should help that, so keep testing and do partial water changes as needed.

Otherwise,  we still have the question of what sort of water the rams were in before you bought them. There could have been some damage done if they were not acclimated properly.

The high nitrite reading you saw may have done some damage to their gills, some research may tell you if this is permanent, I don't know. I know you said the master test kit gave you lower numbers, but near the end of cycling, the nitrite will fall really fast from the peak to zero, like in a day or so. Deaths during cycling are very, very common, and stress will make diseases surface that the fish otherwise might fight off.

Is it possible there is too much current for the rams to be able to rest? maybe they are tired?

I am about out of ideas here. Probably best to monitor water quality in all tanks and do water changes as needed if nitrites show up. Keep the plants growing with adequate lighting, about 10 hours, on a timer. If plant growth is excessive, be sure to trim some out as plants will CONSUME oxygen at night.

Once you are sure the planted tank is stable, you can add the rams back in. Do I see that you've addd 12 guppies to the 20G?

[Zulaab]

Re: New planted tank... fish are dying.

Yes I have added 12 guppies to the tank, and they are eating like pigs and are generally happy.. the water parameters showed last night
Ammonia : 0
NO2: trace (ie less than .25 but not 0)
NO3: trace (less than 1 but not 0)
They have a hiding spot in the QT tank and they spend time in there.  Both Rams are starting to get good color back, but I noticed only 1 ram ate any of the frozen blood worms given to it, and it only ate one of the about 10 total blood worms in the tank.
In the QT tank I pulled 1.5G of water out of it and replaced it all with Rainwater attempting to get all of the uneaten food out of the tank..
The pH has now fallen to just over 7 now, hopefully this will make them happy.  The water is now nice and soft.   I am hoping to see improvement upstairs tonight so I can move the Pleco (I was going to do that last night but because of unforeseen circumstances I had to fix server issues last night and I got home to late last night that the kids had gone to sleep (the tank is in their room).

At least I can say this now.  48H+ no fish have died... a cause to almost celebrate.

[sproett]

Re: New planted tank... fish are dying.

Awesome!  Pictures?

[eklikewhoa]

Re: New planted tank... fish are dying.

Toying with the water params will stress them out as well so unless you can keep the water params where you want them consistently I wouldn't try so hard.

What is the hardness of the water?

[Zulaab]

Re: New planted tank... fish are dying.

Ek -  the water hardness right now is about a 75 (soft) - Exact number I dont have.

I will need go home and check on it again.

Sadly wedensday I had a double death.  The Pleco died and one Ram died.
I have made the choice that the remaining Ram will not see the old aquarium again.  If he/she/it survives another two weeks and will eat by then, I will ask anyone to come pick it up.  The Ram died during the day and overnight the Pleco died.  Like I have said its been the strangest thing.

[Hanson77]

Re: New planted tank... fish are dying.

Have you taken your water in for a competent LFS to check it?  I just can't see, even a planted, 20g tank taking this long to cycle and get stabilized.  I realize that you have been treating with this and that but still, it shouldn't be this hard.  

As far as the rams go, I have heard that they are quite particular in water condition requirements but even as a novice, I was able to keep Bolivans and Angels in a semi planted 20g tank with nowhere near the fatality rate that you have had.  This is by far the most baffling thread that I have ever read on here.  

Have you thought about just starting over from scratch?  I hate to say it but that might be your best option at this point.  I know that you have invested a lot of time and effort and not to mention money but geez....this is like a never ending story.  How is the 58g that you have in your sig doing?  Is it planted at all?  I know you have some pretty tough characters in there, but have you thought about moving the last ram to that tank until you get this one situated and stable?

Just my two pennies worth...