Wild Caught vs. Pondraised vs. Tankraised - good/bad

[jeebus]

I'm not speculating.

Ahem.. You said:

over priced

low quality

old world stock

who knows if they are TR, PR, or whatever....

Unless you know something we don't know about the order Xtreme received and who he received it from, the most you could verify with a store visit is that they are "low quality", which of course I don't think can be truly determined until in a large enough tank at home with good filtration and a proper diet!

So to say "Old World Stock" and then "who knows if they are TR, PR, or whatever" is to speculate that you 1. know that this order is in fact from Old World and not one of his other distributors (which he does use as I've seen the invoices to prove), and 2. that you know for a fact that if they are Old World fish then by default their lineage is truly unknown, as if to say Old World is dishonest with what it advertises as "wild caught", or that you were insinuating that Xtreme is dishonest with their labeling of fish.

Either way, if you have conclusive proof, you owe it to the fish community to bring that information forward so that we can make more informed decisions when deciding where to shop!

Sorry to hear that. Mike could have gotten them for you cheaper.

No need to apologize, I've always paid what I felt was a fair price for fish. I've never paid more just to get a certain variant or type. Stores will always have to charge more to keep the lights on and mouths fed. As long as they're willing to negotiate a fair price with me, I'll always be pro "Mom & Pop" shop!

Oh, and you know I got some from Mike! If I recall, you were the one who got too drunk to deliver that night!

Sorry, not trying to devalue your colony or speculate about your fishes. Just making some general statements. He doesn't get all his fishes from Old world. Old world also brings in WCs.

Again, no need to apologize. I'm not attacking you but more attacking the taboo around fish sold as wild caught. I don't know where I really stand in the fish world, but I just see myself as more of a hobbyist than enthusiast. So for me, I hate to get stressed over what has seemingly become the standard of fish keeping. It seems that "wild caught" has become such a status symbol and has really poluted the enjoyment of the hobby more than help enhance it with better stock.

I know for a fact that after keeping the rainbows, I have no more desire to exclusively keep "wild caught" fish as much as I just want to keep cool fish that will bring enjoyment and reduce my stress levels. The only reason I sought wild caught fish in the first place was because I naively thought that if I didn't, I wasn't getting the best fish. Well, that was foolish of me, and it has been an expensive lesson to learn. With that said, I can almost say for certain that my next two troph purchases will not be wild-caught - but rather whatever cool "F#" or "TR" fry can be scooped out of another hobbyist's tanks!

With that said, I do know that wild caught colonies are needed to make those F# and TR fry! I think professionals and enthusiasts are the ones who these should be marketed for, and not pushed on us hobbyists as much. If a hobbyist wants to own a wild caught colony, that's awesome! He or she just shouldn't feel pressured to think that if they don't then somehow their fish are not as good or as enjoyable as another's W.C. colony.

I just hate that its somehow become the standard to judge all trophs by. The only example I can give is my Discus. They are most certainly TR hybrids, but no one I've met seems the least bit concerned. However, so much stink is put on trophs that it makes you feel that anything less that wild caught is a trash fish - and even you get W.C., you end up questioning if your wild caught are really even that! Of course it comes down to money. People selling trophs have created an artificial demand for "wild caught" fish through word of mouth marketing based on limited availability, and eliteness through exclusivity. Now you can't go into a store and not wonder if the store owner is falsely labeling regular tank raised fish as wild caught so he can mark them up another 40%, or if the wholesaler lied to the store owner and did the same so that they could make an extra 20%. I mean, who's going to know if a giant importer/hatchery in Florida is really sending your store wild caughts or if they're scooping them right out of their ponds, or worse - both! All we have is the word of the Store owner. In this case, although sometimes "different" in the way he handles fish, Truong at Xtreme has always done what was necessary to show that he was being honest about his business - including show me invoices on my last two rainbow purchases from him.

I just think too many of us have gotten so caught up in the wild caught purist mentality that we we've lost focus on the enjoyment of the hobby - myself overly included. Of course there will be some purists and professionals that disagree with me, and that's fine. I also know for some that this isn't a profession, but its definitely more than a hobby, and that's okay too. But I feel as if I have to remind some here (not you specifically Thai, just making a generalization) that this JUST a hobby to most and that it stresses some of us out when we try to get the best fish we can, give them the best tank to live in, and then still have to deal with the idea that our fish might be somehow less than what they were sold to us as.

This is just my .02 cents on the whole "wild caught" debate from a "hobbyist" stand point.

[myjohnson]

lol, dang Glen. We just hijacked this man's thread.

I'm just going to agree to disagree and leave it at that. You know we been down this road. You are entitled to your own opinion, and I respect them as such.

[TaTeR ToT]

Ahem.. You said:



Unless you know something we don't know about the order Xtreme received and who he received it from, the most you could verify with a store visit is that they are "low quality", which of course I don't think can be truly determined until in a large enough tank at home with good filtration and a proper diet!

So to say "Old World Stock" and then "who knows if they are TR, PR, or whatever" is to speculate that you 1. know that this order is in fact from Old World and not one of his other distributors (which he does use as I've seen the invoices to prove), and 2. that you know for a fact that if they are Old World fish then by default their lineage is truly unknown, as if to say Old World is dishonest with what it advertises as "wild caught", or that you were insinuating that Xtreme is dishonest with their labeling of fish.

Either way, if you have conclusive proof, you owe it to the fish community to bring that information forward so that we can make more informed decisions when deciding where to shop!



No need to apologize, I've always paid what I felt was a fair price for fish. I've never paid more just to get a certain variant or type. Stores will always have to charge more to keep the lights on and mouths fed. As long as they're willing to negotiate a fair price with me, I'll always be pro "Mom & Pop" shop!

Oh, and you know I got some from Mike! If I recall, you were the one who got too drunk to deliver that night!



Again, no need to apologize. I'm not attacking you but more attacking the taboo around fish sold as wild caught. I don't know where I really stand in the fish world, but I just see myself as more of a hobbyist than enthusiast. So for me, I hate to get stressed over what has seemingly become the standard of fish keeping. It seems that "wild caught" has become such a status symbol and has really poluted the enjoyment of the hobby more than help enhance it with better stock.

I know for a fact that after keeping the rainbows, I have no more desire to exclusively keep "wild caught" fish as much as I just want to keep cool fish that will bring enjoyment and reduce my stress levels. The only reason I sought wild caught fish in the first place was because I naively thought that if I didn't, I wasn't getting the best fish. Well, that was foolish of me, and it has been an expensive lesson to learn. With that said, I can almost say for certain that my next two troph purchases will not be wild-caught - but rather whatever cool "F#" or "TR" fry can be scooped out of another hobbyist's tanks!

With that said, I do know that wild caught colonies are needed to make those F# and TR fry! I think professionals and enthusiasts are the ones who these should be marketed for, and not pushed on us hobbyists as much. If a hobbyist wants to own a wild caught colony, that's awesome! He or she just shouldn't feel pressured to think that if they don't then somehow their fish are not as good or as enjoyable as another's W.C. colony.

I just hate that its somehow become the standard to judge all trophs by. The only example I can give is my Discus. They are most certainly TR hybrids, but no one I've met seems the least bit concerned. However, so much stink is put on trophs that it makes you feel that anything less that wild caught is a trash fish - and even you get W.C., you end up questioning if your wild caught are really even that! Of course it comes down to money. People selling trophs have created an artificial demand for "wild caught" fish through word of mouth marketing based on limited availability, and eliteness through exclusivity. Now you can't go into a store and not wonder if the store owner is falsely labeling regular tank raised fish as wild caught so he can mark them up another 40%, or if the wholesaler lied to the store owner and did the same so that they could make an extra 20%. I mean, who's going to know if a giant importer/hatchery in Florida is really sending your store wild caughts or if they're scooping them right out of their ponds, or worse - both! All we have is the word of the Store owner. In this case, although sometimes "different" in the way he handles fish, Truong at Xtreme has always done what was necessary to show that he was being honest about his business - including show me invoices on my last two rainbow purchases from him.

I just think too many of us have gotten so caught up in the wild caught purist mentality that we we've lost focus on the enjoyment of the hobby - myself overly included. Of course there will be some purists and professionals that disagree with me, and that's fine. I also know for some that this isn't a profession, but its definitely more than a hobby, and that's okay too. But I feel as if I have to remind some here (not you specifically Thai, just making a generalization) that this JUST a hobby to most and that it stresses some of us out when we try to get the best fish we can, give them the best tank to live in, and then still have to deal with the idea that our fish might be somehow less than what they were sold to us as.

This is just my .02 cents on the whole "wild caught" debate from a "hobbyist" stand point.

i completly aggree, i have always only had TR Trophs, and i think they are awesome, i enjoyed them thuroughly.

[geoff_tropheus]

Wild Caught vs. Pondraised vs. Tankraised - good/bad

Since we all have been keeping these fish, I have kept a large number of Wild Caught fish, Tankraised fish, African Pondraised, and Florida Pondraised fish over the years. I have seen the good the bad and the ugly of each kind.

Please post here your experiences.

Thanks,

Geoff

[fshfrk]

All my fish have been sold to me as wild caught. Those collectors must be pretty good to only catch moops exactly 3 inch long.

[newb]

I have a tank of "wild caught" Katoto's, and also a tank of Dubs that were sold to me as "I dont know what they are!" meaning not sure if WC, F1, or etc. Personally, I enjoy my Dubs WAAAAAAY more than the Katoto. Although both are really fun to watch!

[myjohnson]

All my fish have been sold to me as wild caught. Those collectors must be pretty good to only catch moops exactly 3 inch long.

lol, good point John.

[myjohnson]

I have a tank of "wild caught" Katoto's, and also a tank of Dubs that were sold to me as "I dont know what they are!" meaning not sure if WC, F1, or etc. Personally, I enjoy my Dubs WAAAAAAY more than the Katoto. Although both are really fun to watch!

Interested to know why enjoy your dubs WAAAAAY more than your Katoto?

[myjohnson]

I have owned WCs, F1s, and TR. They all look the same to me. The one plus side to buying WC is you get them big (at least I did) and they are ready to breed. It's cool watching little fry swimming around.

To raise an f1 from .5'' to 3'' is about a year, give or take. That's a years worth of fish food, water changes, additives, bloat treatment if and when it comes up, cleaning out the filters...the list goes on and on. I just want BIG fishes.

John brings up a good point. It's hard to tell if something is really WC even when they sell it to you as such. But I think there is a way to tel l, when true WCs come in all they eat is the algae off the rocks and glass. They don't eat flakes, pellets, shrimp mix, nothing. To me that's a good sign that the fish is really WC.

[geoff_tropheus]

Wild Caught Fish Pros/Cons

When I first started ordering Large Colonies of Wild caught fish in 2000 those fish would be about 15% 3-4", 80% 4.25 to 5.5", and 5% 5.25 to 6" old "grandpa's and grandma's" that died on you in a year.

Over the last few years, these sizes have reduced TREMENDOUSLY. Now you get 30% 2-3", 40% 3"-4", 29% 4-4.75", and lucky 1% to get one at 5" or more. This has changed over the years because of over fishing (African Diving Shutdown), shipping costs, and European Tank sizes. Shipping costs is obvious with price of fuel and trying to fit more fish per box. The European tank sizes are smaller than here in the US and most don’t have the room for several 6ft or 8ft long aquariums. So they demand smaller fish. They also demand smaller fish because they want fish that will have a longer breeding life to them and yield a higher return on investment.

I miss the big wild caught fish, and the diversity of size they used to come. Mostly because when they are arriving all the same size, it makes you really wonder if they are spending all that time in fuel and oxygen and in collecting time to go out to locations and only collect 3.5 to 4.5" fish. Just makes me wonder if the Lakeside Pond raised operations are being used in a much wider application than reported.

The Pros - Number 1 and most important when getting Wild Caught fish is the genetic diversity. You will get a wide range of color both good and bad, and the proper shape. You want to maintain a breeding stock that is as diverse as possible. In aquaria you will be lucky to have 1-3 males breeding with about 5-6 females all the time. The rest will stay in the huddled masses for the most part. So it’s very critical to maintain genetic diversity in your breeding stock. I have seen too many times what bad breeding has done to these fish. The fish look like they are supposed to, they have not been tampered with by man.

The Wild fish are generally bigger overall because they had the "infinite" volume of the lake to grow. Which in your aquarium you'll never match.

The wild fish generally display a more natural behavior when that environment can be provided.

The Cons are obvious to me anyway. They have a higher percentage of death from diseases, malnutrition, and stress of collection, shipping, and adaptation. There is also the moral issue of taking from the wild and putting in your home. The fish deserve the absolute best care you can provide them, you asked for this not them.

The Wild fish are also much more aggressive. This is very obvious in Petrochromis. The adult fish had and maintained territories in the lake that they now cannot do in aquaria. It is in their nature and their habit to be dominating. They are not used to the food coming from you to always be there 1-3X per day.

Then there is the moral issues of people who sell these fish. Are these fish really wild or are they not? I think in most cases it is not the exporter or first line importer that has these issues. Its the people who buy from the importers, both Hobbyist and Retailers alike. You have to have a relationship of trust with these people that they are being completely honest with you. Just be careful what you buy when getting Wild Caught fish. Demand a photo or a copy of the invoice. If they cannot provide, then you just have to deal with it as such.

Just remember this. Wild Fish are going to be more money, and more susceptible to issues. They are harder to get acclimated and to get eating than the others. They generally take about 6 months to get good and settled before they are producing fry and really grouped and settled in.

There is nothing “special” about having them, it is only a matter of preference.

Most people I think look at them because people are so excited about getting them as adults and they praise them quickly, post them in forums. I think they mostly don’t have the patience to let their F1, Tank Raised, Pond Raised, or mixed colony grow out and develop.

[Navarro]

I got the T’s bug not long ago, and it’s very exiting to see the amount of variants available at this very moment and the ones that have stayed popular throughout the years and of course the new and the difficult that only the experienced seek.
The more serious you are about these fish the more important it becomes to have a stock of fish from the wild. Why? The way I see it just to produce good quality fry for the most part I don’t think there are many out there doing research work with the fish and for those how devote their time to study this wonders of Lake Tanganyika my hat is down it takes cojones and money to go there to document.
The bad side is what happens to the collectors; SCUBA diving a serious matter and they have to be educated about it many of these “commercial divers” suffer from nitrogen accumulation because they don’t know their limits and this is a global problem you can ask about it, weather it is for food consumption or the pet trade this problem have been going on for many years.
The worst thing that happens and the one that bother me the most is transportation of the fish it has to be improved world wide! Is amazing the amount of fish that die; I understand this is a difficult one but it can be improved.
Pond raised animals on the other hand are yet the second best option if professionally and responsibly done, the ponds have to be monitored at all times and the live stock gene pool kept monitored for good quality fish.
All the countries around the lake are developing nations that struggle most of the time for things that are basic for us, gasoline is consider a luxury therefore only used when is really needed so having a well organized fishery means that only when is time to refresh the gene pool a trip will have to be done to collect new specimens and also benefit the locals with a permanent job.
I have seen any T’s from Florida so I have nothing to say about their quality.
Cheers,
Luis

[geoff_tropheus]

TankRaised Fish Pro's and Con's

I have never kept an entire colony of tank raised fish, but 2 of my colonies currently are a mixed colony of wild, tank and or pond raised, and some of my own F1’s.

Tank raised fish are any fish that is a mix of generations born and bred in aquarium. If the fish are 100% from Wild caught they are F1, then if the fry are 100% from F1, they are F2, and so forth.

Most Industry people consider anything past F2 as tank raised even if they are F3 or whatnot. Me personally, any fish that does not come from Wild caught stock is tank raised if it was reared in Aquaria.

Retailers and Importers here get into lots of trouble here because of Market Demands they automatically put F1 when in fact they may not be this.

Tank raised fish are more robust from the start, and can be adapted to aquarium environments rather easily. We all know that with Tropheus it is about consistency and conditioning. You can get your Tropheus to eat just about anything, and handle most water conditions as long as you have them acclimated to it. Having the tank raised fish takes patience.

Tank raised fish, take time to grow out.

More to come later…got to get back to work I just wanted to post this and edit later… J

[jeebus]

All my fish have been sold to me as wild caught. Those collectors must be pretty good to only catch moops exactly 3 inch long.

So what do you do? What can you do? I'm of the peace of mind that you're an honest person, so all you can do is sell them as they were sold to you, and sell their fry the same, as F1's. I don't think anything is gained by trying to determine the truly undeterminable at that point. Perhaps if one of us is about to purchase fish labeled as wild caught and we come to the box to ask for help, a definitive answer could be found. But once the money's spent and the fish are in your tank, what can you really do?

But I think there is a way to tell when true WCs come in all they eat is the algae off the rocks and glass. They don't eat flakes, pellets, shrimp mix, nothing. To me that's a good sign that the fish is really WC.

Perhaps, but what if you get them from a retailer, who got them from the importer, who got them from the lakeside operation, that pulled them at least a month ago?

All you can do is trust that your retailer's importer is honest, as is the retailer. Of course as Geoff insinuated in his post, it seems more and more probable by the change in the size of "wild" fish imported that there might be some dishonesty on the lakeside in the name of profit.

Geoff, thank you for debunking some of the myth that wild caught is always "better".

[katytropheus]

I bought Ikola's from Alex out of his apartment off Westhimer 15 years ago. I was told they were WC. I have bought Ikola's from Old World via Truong recently. On that variant I don't see much color variation or much behavior deviation. What seems very different to me then to now is Geoff's observation on percentage of large fish. I would say a 30 fish then had around 10-12 monsters. A 30 now, has less than 5. I think I bought RR's out of his apartment and definitely Bulu Points but I don't remember an Ilangi until his initial shop. It's come a long ways from basically only getting a Rutunga in the 70's.

[myjohnson]

Perhaps, but what if you get them from a retailer, who got them from the importer, who got them from the lakeside operation, that pulled them at least a month ago?

I understand where you are coming from. I would do as you have done. Count on your retailer. If he gave you a receipt that stated WC then go with that. Tell the buyer of your f1s where you got the fish and let them choose for themselves. Only a fool would turn down some good looking RRs for a reasonable price.

I'm actually in the camp with geoff and some others. If they are not WC then they are all tank raised to me; however, the market has not, till this day, adopted such a point of view.

All you can do is trust that your retailer's importer is honest, as is the retailer. Of course as Geoff insinuated in his post, it seems more and more probable by the change in the size of "wild" fish imported that there might be some dishonesty on the lakeside in the name of profit.

Size don't tell all these days. One school of thought claims that the smaller size is due to TR or PR fishes being sold into the European and American markets as WC. Others have claim that the smaller size is due to small size demand by hobbyist and professional breeders a like. I asked this very same question to a diver I know lakeside on TF. He stated that the smaller fishes are coming in now b/c European and American importers are requesting they be small. Smaller b/c breeding life is longer and they just ship better small.

Geoff, thank you for debunking some of the myth that wild caught is always "better".

Honest, at the end of the day we are talking about fishes.