Need Help on Water Parameters

[Complexity]

Looking at that report, it shows the contaminates listed below. I then looked for each of them list of contaminates removed by the carbon filter. Here's what I found:

Arsenic - no
Barium - no
Fluoride - yes
Nitrate - no
Selenium - no
Combined Radium - no
Gross Beta Emitters - no*
Gross Alpha - no*
Chlorine Residual, Free - yes
Copper - no
Lead - no

I put an * by the Gross Beta Emitters and Gross Alpha because I honestly don't know what they are, but the list of stuff removed by the carbon filter didn't mention them so I left them in the no category.

Okay, that then boils down to two contaminates: Chorine (which we already knew) and Fluoride. Prime removes the Chlorine, but I don't think it does anything to the Fluoride.

So what harm is done to fish by Fluoride at the rate of 0.48ppm to 0.92ppm (0.7ppm average)?

[Complexity]

The reason I listed the absorbency of activated carbon is because I wanted to show you all the things that it will grab so everyone has an understanding, even if something you might not want shows up even in the smallest quantities activated carbon has a good chance of removing it before it hits the water.

Understood. But in order to assess that it is, in fact, better, it's important to go beyond the list and look at the details. Only then can we really determine what the difference is which can then, in turn, determine if it's truly better. If we don't look at these details, then I don't think we can truly say one is better than the other.

We can say that we prefer one over the other for a variety of reasons.

Please don't mistake my meaning. I'm not knocking carbon filters. I think they're great, and one day I might even consider getting one for myself. I can imagine they would be quite a cost savings for people who are doing large water changes on multiple large tanks simply because it can take a lot of Prime to treat that large a quantity of water. It might also be easier for some people. And even the "cool factor" has relevance. But I think we need to be cautious before we report that it is truly better unless we can detail what is better about it.

Just blame the geek in me. )

[Mzungu]

I'm not seeing that activated carbon removes fluoride in any of the sites I'm looking at...

[Mzungu]

Here's another list. It's old, but I don't think activated carbon has changed much.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/h2oqual/watsys/ae1029w.htm

[Complexity]

Found the report on organics. http://www.sugarlandtx.gov/public_wo...ndaryConst.pdf

Bicarbonate - no
Calcium - no
Chloride - yes, in previous list
Copper - no
Iron - no
Magnesium - no
Manganese - no
pH - n/a
Sodium - no
Sulfate - ? it lists removal of Dimethylsulfate
Total Alkalinity as CaCO3 - n/a
Total Dissolved Solids - n/a
Total Hardness as CaCO3 - n/a
Zinc - no

I'll be honest, this is surprising me. The list of organics are all no except chlorine which we already knew and possibly sulfate. I don't know if Dimethylsulfate and plain Sulfate that's listed are the same, but just in case, I'll flag it.

[Complexity]

Here's another list. It's old, but I don't think activated carbon has changed much.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/h2oqual/watsys/ae1029w.htm

Great, thanks! Let me see if it lists anything more than the other list.

[cichlid1409]

But I think we need to be cautious before we report that it is truly better unless we can detail what is better about it.

Just blame the geek in me. )

Do your reseach you will find that it is much better than adding any dechlorinators to your tank. I know because i have done the research. http://www.houstonfishbox.com/vforum...ad.php?t=28940 (check page 2) dechloronators don't remove the chlorine/chloromines they only change them into something else. carbon removes them. as far as fluoride read this http://www.pwgazette.com/problemfluoride.htm

[Complexity]

I didn't do a line by line comparison because the only thing I could see was arsenic, but I think the numbers might make it irellavent. I never got the mg/L termanology down, but which is greater? 0.05mg/L or 3ppb (billion, not ppm million)? If 3ppb is the smaller number, then that knocks that one out of the running.

I didn't see anything else on that list that matched what's being reported about the water.

Something else that doesn't help the argument is this line from that same page. It states, "Because organic chemicals are often responsible for taste, odor, and color problems, AC filtration can generally be used to improve aesthetically objectional water. AC filtration will also remove chlorine," emphasis mine.

That matches the previous list which included things such as Fish Odor. It seems the carbon filter may make the water appear cleaner, which is desirable, even if it doesn't necessarily make it healthier for fish. Kind of how some people don't like the look of tannins even though the tannins are harmless.

[cichlid1409]

Found the report on organics. http://www.sugarlandtx.gov/public_wo...ndaryConst.pdf

Bicarbonate - no
Calcium - no
Chloride - yes, in previous list
Copper - no
Iron - no
Magnesium - no
Manganese - no
pH - n/a
Sodium - no
Sulfate - ? it lists removal of Dimethylsulfate
Total Alkalinity as CaCO3 - n/a
Total Dissolved Solids - n/a
Total Hardness as CaCO3 - n/a
Zinc - no

the blue ones are not organics they are metals . carbon will not remove metals. organics contain a carbon molecule.

[Complexity]

Cichlid, I've only read the first of the two threads you posted so excuse me if this info is in the other thread. I'll read it next.

But I want to be sure I'm following this correct. There are two concerns about the new dechlorinators, (1) oxygen levels and (2) this comment, which was not detailed, "did you see all the other by products from the dechlorination prossess. SCARY!"

Does anyone know how much oxygen we're talking about? I'll admit that I've been lax with overdosing Prime, but that's always been with planted tanks so the plants may have maintained higher oxygen levels. However, I'm about to start up a cichlid tank with no plants. How much of an overdose does it take to kill the fish? 10%? 50%? 100%? 500%? Does anyone know?

As to the second part, where can I find the by-products list and the affects they have on fish?

Again, if this is in the second thread you listed, just ignore this because I'm about to read it now.

[Complexity]

the blue ones are not organics they are metals . carbon will not remove metals. organics contain a carbon molecule.

I was just going down the list. I don't know how any of that stuff is affected by carbon or what the effects are to fish (other than that copper can kill inverts).

[Complexity]

Okay, just read the second link, but I don't see how that's pertinent to the discussion since I thought we agreed that the carbon filters you guys are using do not remove Fluoride. If that's the case, then any harmful effects, if any, of Fluoride on fish remains the same regardless of whether you're using a dechlorinator or a carbon filter.

So are we down to the issue of oxygenation and the byproducts issue?

[cichlid1409]

I understand your ignorant (i mean this in the true definition and not to be rude) on the subject so i'll do what i can to help.

1. the most deoxygenateion occurs with the release of sulfur ions into the water column where they pick up free floating oxygen molecules (deoxygenation) and exit the surface of the water ( the rotten egg smell). the amount of deoxygenation and its effect is all relative to how much dechlorinator you add , how much fish you have in your tank, the amount of oxygen your adding (bubbler, surface aggitation) and how much water you are changing at one time. FYI lack of oxygen to the brain causes brain damage. i included the formulas and all the whole numbers are moles so figure out how much a mole of each is and you can do the math. i am personally not that interested.

2. i don't remember all the exact compounds that were created as side effects and i didn't save all the links but sulfur and hydrochloric acid were two that i listed on the previous link. if you want google dechlorination and sodium bisulfite or sodium thiosulfate the 2 main dechlorinators used the first being the most common currently.

3. as far as being dangerous , you may not find a deffinitive answer to that question. the fact is we still use hormones on dairy cows and chicken that we eat and supposedly they are safe but i don't think so. it all boils down to take it out before hand (carbon) or leave it all in and turn it into other stuff that might possibly shorten the fishes life. Alot of people on here keep WC fish and chlorine and dechlorination by-products don't sound right for the money they spend on their 'babies'.

[cichlid1409]

Okay, just read the second link, but I don't see how that's pertinent to the discussion since I thought we agreed that the carbon filters you guys are using do not remove Fluoride. If that's the case, then any harmful effects, if any, of Fluoride on fish remains the same regardless of whether you're using a dechlorinator or a carbon filter.

So are we down to the issue of oxygenation and the byproducts issue?

you aked about fluoride that is just a link saying carbon doesn't really remove floride. just another thing to look at i guess. but IS fluride harmful thats the question..... 8)

[Complexity]

I understand your ignorant (i mean this in the true definition and not to be rude) on the subject so i'll do what i can to help.

Absolutely no offense taken. I am ignorant on the subject, but am always willing to learn.

Good point about the WC fish and the level of concern. I am finding that there's almost a different culture of fish keepers, depending on what tanks and fish they keep. I have mostly talked with others with planted tanks where WC fish weren't an issue. In fact, many people with planted tanks are more into the plants than the fish. I'm mostly a fish person, myself.

So while I know enough to do pretty good with planted tanks and fish in general, keeping a tank of cichlids with nothing but rocks and sand is a new experience, and I'm finding that I have to start the educational process all over again.

I'm not ready to get a carbon filter today, but you have helped me to see the point in it all. I may switch over one day. In the meantime, I'm going to be much more careful to not overdose with Prime and watch my oxygen levels. If I graduate to keeping more rare and/or expensive fish, I will definitely reconsider the option of using a carbon filter.

I greatly appreciate all the info you've provided.