Converting my Tank to Planted

[DiscusKid]

I have a 10 gallon tank tht is currently being used as a community tank(guppies,tetras), that i want to convert to a low tech planted(java ferns, java moss,crypts)and i wan to get as much knowledge as possible before i dive into it. the dimentions of the tank are the same as a ADA mini L

http://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=afa_product_info&cPath=25_30&products_id=122

HERES THE GAMEPLAN:
for lighting i found a old desk lamp that i thought would work that has a ecosmart 13w 2700k bulb(would this be enough or should i replace) for substrate im thinking of picking up some Amazonia II, power sand S and a strip in the middle of brightsand, filter is a tetra HOB, as for ferts(i would prefer not to use any, but if necessary i will dose something, any suggestions?) again the tank has some guppies and some tetras but i think theyre gonna go and be replaced with something else havent decided yet
(the gravel is a old gravel i had laying aorund, and plants are some extra plastic ones). any suggestions, am i headng in the right direction?

Thanks for the help

[Mzungu]

First, I would get another bulb. The desk lamp should work all right, but a 2700K might be a little yellowish. And it will be higher on the spectrum (nm) and you might need a fuller spectrum bulb. Try finding some 13W screw-in plant lights, they sell them at WalMart and those types of stores.

Your choice of substrate is great, and with the plants you've chosen you probably won't need any ferts.

You might want to get some driftwood and/or rocks to attach the java moss and java fern, for they aren't planted in the substrate like other plants.

If you decide to keep the fish you have now, they will do perfectly in a planted tank. It looks like you have some serpae tetras and maybe some penguin tetras? I'm not sure, can't see too well in the pictures, but most species of tetras are wonderful for planted tanks.

Filter's fine, as well.

Go for it! :)

[DiscusKid]

thnx for the advice Mzungu ill go pick one up at walmart ASAP. yes i am going to pick up some driftwood for the fern/moss maybe a few rocks here and there. another question i had was how much substrate would i need i was thinking 10 liters (6 amazonia 2 power sand and 2 decorative sand would this be enough or is it too much?)
HERES THE LIST OF PLANTS I HAD IN MIND:
cryptocoryne Wendtii(red and green)
Christmas Moss(decided to change frm java moss because i think looks better but ive heard tht its alittle harder to keep so im not sure yet)
Bolbtis heudelotii
Philippine Java Fern
Rotala Indica(im not sure kind of confused, some souces say yes it grows in low light, other say no any opinions?)
the picture is the picture that "inspired me" kind of the look i want.

[Complexity]

Rotala Indica(im not sure kind of confused, some souces say yes it grows in low light, other say no any opinions?)

Rotala indica will not do well in the setup you're describing. It wants ferts, bright light, and, ideally, CO2. Even if it survives, it's unlikely to look good or obtain its pink/red coloring.

While deciding on your setup, keep in mind a basic concept of balance between 3 (or, IMHO, 4) main components: (1) Light, (2) Ferts, (3) CO2 and I believe there is a 4th component, (4) Plant Mass.

All plants need a certain amount of light, ferts and CO2 in order to grow. If a plant receives all 3 of these components in abundance, then it will grow to it's full potential. However, if any 1 of these components is either missing or too little, then that component will limit the plant's ability to grow. It's easy to understand this in the simple example that a plant with lots of ferts and CO2 won't grow if light is missing. The same applies not only to the component missing, but being limited. A plant receiving all the ferts and CO2 it needs will be limited if it's getting only 1/2 of the light it needs. In this case, the light will limit the plant's growth.

Having these components out of balance usually not only ends up with poor plant growth, but can easily set up an environment for algae. This is where my theory of the 4th component comes in, plant mass.

To describe my theory, let's put an arbitrary number to the amount of ferts a plant needs. Let's say a single plant needs just 1 fert. It would seem reasonable then that if you put 1 plant in the tank and dosed 1 fert, then that single plant would get all it needs, right?

The problem is that the ferts are diluted in the water, and the plant can only obtain the amount of ferts in the water in which it is in contact. So, again using the arbitrary number of 1 for ferts, if you dose 1 fert in a 1g tank, the ferts will be much more concentrated than if you put the same 1 fert in a 10g tank. A plant in the 1g tank would be in contact with 10 times the amount of ferts than the plant in the 10g tank.

So do you then dose 10 ferts in the 10g tank to give that one plant all the ferts it needs? You can, but there's a problem. Now the tank has 9 ferts extra. The plant cannot use it. Generally speaking, algae will take advantage of this to use up those extra 9 ferts.

The way to resolve this is to put 10 plants in the 10g tank. Now all 10 plants are receiving the ferts they need with none left over for algae. It is for this reason I believe plant mass is an important component in the overall balance.

So when you decide on the plants you want to use, keep in mind that you will need to create an overall balance between those plants and the lights, ferts, CO2 and plant mass. This means it's best to use plants with similar needs. Mixing a plant that does best with brighter light, higher concentration of ferts and more CO2 with plants that require low levels of light, ferts and CO2 will require very careful attention. It is not something I would recommend doing in the beginning. Instead, I'd suggest matching the other plants with something that truly requires lower light, ferts and CO2. If you later want to incorporate plants with higher needs, then you have to raise the lighting, ferts and CO2 to match those needs, but then you run into the problem of plant mass: too few plants utilizing the light, ferts and CO2.

One other note about lighting. When talking about the amount of light a plant needs, it is the intensity (loosely, the watts per gallon) that must be considered most. You cannot give a plant more of too little light and expect that to compensate. If a plant requires bright light, giving it 12 hours of low light does not compensate for 8 hours of bright light. All it means is that the plant is given more hours of less lighting than it needs. In fact, as you increase the intensity of the lighting, you'll find that you will have to be very careful with the photo period hours. You can give low light plants 12 hours of low light, but once you start increasing the intensity of the light, you will have no choice but to reduce the photo period hours.

I hope this helps a little. Keep in mind that it's all a matter of balance. Overall, I believe it is easier to start with low needs plants (low ferts, CO2 and lighting) and work your way up with the intensity of the lighting always being the last component being increased. This may explain why you are receiving conflicting advice on using Rotala indica in your design.

All of the plants you have selected will do well in a low tech environment, meaning low lighting, low/no ferts and low/no CO2. The only exception is the Rotala indica. So while Rotala indica might be able to survive in a low tech tank, it won't do well. I'd suggest finding another plant that can handle the environment better. Since my tanks are considered high tech (EI ferts, injected CO2, bright lighting), I'm not able to recommend a plant as a good substitute for Rotala indica, but I'm sure others will be able to give you lots of good suggestions.

[wesleydnunder]

Discuskid, for a low light set up, I'd go with the advice Mzungu gave you. Before you jump head-first into hi tech (co2/fert/hi light) planted aquariums, I'd suggest learning how to grow plants first. I know a lot of folks who tried going hi tech with their first planted tank, spent a bunch of money and wound up quitting in frustration when the dream tank turned into an algae farm.

FWIW, rotala will grow in lower light set ups, just not as fast as in the hi tech tanks. I have rotala in a 30L low/med lt tank that needs trimming about a fourth as often as it did in the hi tech tank.

Mark

[Mzungu]

That amount of AquaSoil should do fine, although I still have trouble dealing in liters instead of pounds of gravel, lol.

I think that for the Bolbitis and the Rotala (which is actually R. rotundifolia, but some people call it R. indica) you might want to get a LEEEETLE bit more light. What's that desk lamp you have rated for? If it's possible to get an 18-22 watt bulb, that might be better.

I have also grown Rotala "indica" under really low light. It might just get to be a pale pink color, but it will grow, like Mark said.

As for the java fern, Christmas moss, and crypts you have chosen, they will do fine. If you can, try to get crypts that haven't just been shipped from somewhere. If you can get them from another hobbyist, that would be good, too. I have always found that well-established crypts do better in the long-run than ones I've bought that just arrived in a store. People will tell stories about their crypts "melting," and to my knowledge there still is not an agreed upon answer as to why they do that, but as long as you keep them in a stable environment, I've found them to do wonderfully in low light setups. :)

[DiscusKid]

WOW lots of replies thanks for the help.Complexity thank for the REALLY useful info i had to read like 3 times to understand it all lol, but it was really helpful thank you. wesleydnunder i was going to jump straight into high tech but i heard so many disaster stories i decided to start small and maybe possibly in the future move gradualy into a high tech system. Mzungu the lamp is rated up to 60w, im going to pick up a bulb tomorrow, since i was really busy today.as for the crypts(and all the plants for that matter) i have no idea where to get them from, ive never actually gone plant shopping, so where would be a good place to start shopping around(anyone know any websites that are good?)Oh also i think im going to give all the fish that are currently in the tank to my little coussin for his tank and get some ottos RCS and some sarpaes...hope i didnt miss anything

Thanks again for the help

[Somefishguy]

I recently started a low tech tank as well. I picked up my plants from a fellow fishboxer(THANKS DEBBIE). All the plants i got are doing great(even the crypts which only one 3 of 10-15 melted, but leaves are coming back). So i would defiantly post and see if someone could get you a few plants to get you started.

I have also ordered some plants from ebay(aquaticmagic was the seller i think) for a really good price (3 stalks of amazon sword 1.25, 3 stalks or crypts 1.50, two types of java ferns for 1.60 each), just have to keep your eyes open for the good deals.


As for the bulbs, try and get a 26 watt GE spiral bulb(like the one you have) but the daylight 6500 version. They sale the 2 pack of these bulbs for like 6$ at walmart. They are in blue packaging. That should give you sufficent light.

other plants that should do well in the setup are
hornwort
anachris
vals
water wisteria
anubias

All are pretty easy growers under those conditions.

good luck

[Complexity]

DiscusKid, a high tech tank isn't that hard. It's expensive, but not hard. In fact, I think it's easier since the plants get exactly what they need. No issues with plants not growing well.

The difference is when bright light is added. The brighter the light, the faster everything happens... when means... if the components I mentioned are out of balance, things go south very quickly.

To migrate to a high tech tank, I would suggest giving this a try.

1. Get CO2. If you can afford it, jump in immediately to injected CO2. Many people fiddle with other CO2 methods (Seachem Excel, DIY yeast), but there's nothing like having injected CO2.

2. Get dry ferts. This confuses a lot of people for some reason, but simply put, if you can take a measuring spoon, scoop out a dry powder, and then dump that into a tank, you already know how to dose a tank with dry ferts. There are charts that say how much to scoop and dump. It's that easy. Dry ferts are also extremely inexpensive, much cheaper than using something like Seachem Flourish line.

3. Get plants. LOTS of plants. LOTS of fast growing plants. STUFF the tank full. Use hornwort, a very weedy fast growing plant, to fill in when you don't have all the plants you want yet. This is in reference to the plant mass I spoke of earlier.

4. NOW get brighter lights. I like T5s. If you can afford it and want to get a larger planted tank (3' or longer), I'd suggest TEK. You'll never regret it.

5. Begin adjusting the photo period from very low to higher as your tank can handle it. It's important to start off with less light intensity and a shorter photo period and work your way up than to start off with massive light and then try to fix things after the algae takes over. This is the biggest mistake many people make that creates a disaster. It's unnecessary and easily avoided.

As long as you put bright lighting as the last component, you'll do fine. Even a small "no/low tech" tank will go south in a hurry if you put too much light on it without CO2, ferts and plant mass. You can have CO2, ferts and plant mass without bright lighting, but not the other way around.

Also stock up on Seachem Excel and/or plain ol' 3% hydrogen peroxide to kill out any algae that attempts to take over. If you are watching things carefully, you can nip algae in the bud easily. There are two steps in attacking algae.

1. Fix the imbalance. Algae is the result of having one or more component that I mentioned above out of balance. If you've migrated in the order I suggested, you most likely won't have algae issues until you begin using bright light. This is why I suggest starting with a short photo period and low intensity and working your way up.

2. Kill of existing algae. The funny thing is that fixing the imbalance does not kill off existing algae. It can stop further growth and spread of new algae, but you have to actively kill the algae that's already in the tank. This is where Excel and/or Hydrogen Peroxide come in. Both will easily kill existing algae of all kinds. Once killed, it simply disappears (although, a number of fish and inverts will eat dead algae, even BBA).

There's no reason to shy away from a high tech setup if that's what you truly want. The bigger question is whether it's what you want. Personally, I cannot imagine having anything less. Trying to grow plants in lesser conditions just isn't as satisfying. The main caveat, other than expense, is the work. The faster the plants grow, the higher the maintenance. Not just with water changes, dosing ferts and refilling CO2 cylinders, but with the weekly pruning. Some people love pruning plants, some do not. I'm not fond of it, but I'm willing to do it to enjoy the beauty of a planted tank.

As far as where to get plants, trading/buying on the online boards is the best source. It seems not too many people are doing it on this board, but there are tons of plants offered on TPT (http://www.plantedtank.net) and APC (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com). Even with paying $5-$6 for shipping, you can get some outstanding deals while also getting plants you simply cannot find in the LFS (or even online stores).

Sorry for being so verbose. It's just a topic I really enjoy.

[wesleydnunder]

Well-explained and presented, Vicki. The reason I usually suggest starting out slow for plant newbs is the complexity involved in hi-tech set-ups. Even though your explanation was simply put, I think that the amount of info in successfully keeping a high-tech set up can quickly overwhelm many neophytes. Having kept the same set-ups you describe for over two decades, I'm not trying to convey the wrong message that hi-tech is so esoteric that a neophyte can't dive right in and have a wonderful, rewarding experience the first time. My experience, however, is that most don't take the time to learn the necessary basics before the attempt and wind up giving up on planted tanks altogether when results don't fit expectations.

Discuskid, whichever way you decide to go, know that there are lots of support people here to help you along the way, one of whom is obviously Vicki.

Mark

[Complexity]

Well understood, Mark. I mainly wanted to open up the option of going high tech. If someone truly wanted to try it, but was afraid, I wanted to say that it's not all that complicated and complex. I think there are just a few basic concepts involved which are easily mastered by anyone who was willing to learn them.

High tech tanks are not for everyone. They are a LOT of work! I think, if anything, the constant attention is a bigger consideration when deciding on whether to go with a high tech setup. Well, that and the expense.

But there is absolutely nothing wrong or bad with low tech setups. In fact, that's part of the fun! Each person gets to express themselves in this hobby in the way they enjoy most. The idea isn't to convince anyone to go high tech, but to open up options so everyone can feel they are able to be successful with whatever setup they truly desire, be that no tech, low tech, high tech or anything in between.

[DiscusKid]

Complexity i really want to go into a high tech but i cant afford one at the moment so i plant to set up the tank as a low tech for now and ill upgrade it eventually i just want to get a feel of how its like to keep live plants as this will be my 1st planted tank.wesleydnunder and everyone else thanks for the support i really appreciate it.Somefishguy please let me know how it goes with aquaticmagic i might concider ordering from them in the future.

P.S: i forgot to get the bulb today AGAINill try to get tomorrow AGAIN

Thanks Again

[Somefishguy]

I ordered some java ferns(couple different varieties). They all arrived in great condition, and were a good size portion(had more leaves than advertised).

Ive ordered some crypts and swords from them and am awaiting arrival on them(takes about 1.5 weeks to get them). These are shipped without leaves, but they say these will grow in just fine within a few days. I will let you know what happens with them when they get in.

[DiscusKid]

thank you . i heard theyre located in malaysia. i was worried about shipping..

[Complexity]

Complexity i really want to go into a high tech but i cant afford one at the moment so i plant to set up the tank as a low tech for now and ill upgrade it eventually i just want to get a feel of how its like to keep live plants as this will be my 1st planted tan

I understand completely! I hope I can be of some kind of help even if in no other way but to offer ideas that you can consider as you explore what works best for you. Be sure to keep a journal as your tank evolves. It's fun to see how planted tanks of all kinds change over time.