Using a canister filter instead of a submersible return pump

[peterp63]

Re: Using a canister filter instead of a submersible return

The wet/dry filter sump is fed by the water that overflows into the overflow box.  That rate is equal to the amount of flow that the FX5 is pumping into the aquarium.  So, say the FX5 starts off pumping 500 GPH and after a few weeks it starts to build some crud inside and it slows down to 400 GPH.  The amount of overflow that is spilling into the sump is reduced from 500 GPH to 400 GPH, accordingly.  Correct?  The system (which includes tank, sump, and associated piping) is closed.  Unless you're adding/removing water.  Well, discounting the rate of evaporation....  right?      

So, how are we gonna spill again??

[peterp63]

Re: Using a canister filter instead of a submersible return

Zu, that was my next question.  Does there need to be a significant amount of head pressure to prime and maintain flow?  I thought many of these canister filter pumps were self priming....  Anybody ever try to start and maintain flow through a canister filter at the same level as the feed water??

PS:  Thanks!  I'm not crazy!!

[eklikewhoa]

Re: Using a canister filter instead of a submersible return

Yes Peter you are by most part correct...there can't be overflow without water being pumped back up. The chances of the FX5 failing and causing overflow is still possible since you are talking about a big tank and the sump would have to be fairly large...

But with the Fx5 being the return pump it leaves for more failures. If you really insist on using it then do so....it is your tank.

[Zulaab]

Re: Using a canister filter instead of a submersible return

From what I can read the FX5 is gravity feed for sure, meaning you will need to place the sump higher than the pump.    The Pump without the hose attachments are 17" tall making the whole unit somewhere around 2ft tall with the hose attachments done.
You will need place the sump above that height.  It will not suck the water out there.

Did you buy the 210 with a sump ?  If you did which kind is it ?
If you DIDNT get a sump with it, I would recommend STRONGLY getting a pro/clear 200 or 300.
The 300 is 35"L X 12.25"W X 18"H (The 200 is only 27" L, other dimensions are the same).  You have to get a sump this big or else yes you are going to have an over flow problem if the power goes out.
You will need about another 8-10" over the top of the sump.

Your cabinet needs to be 24" (for the FX5) then the sump above the FX5 is 18" plus the 10" above the sump for the overflow line.
This makes your cabinet needing to be 52" tall or (4ft 4")  This will put the top of your 210 (6ft version) 52" + 28" = 80" or about 6'8"
Now lets say you want to go with the absolutely tightest possible connections and still have it work.
20" for FX5 22" for the sump + maybe 3in to route hose up to the top.  This still gives you a total stand height of 45" which 3ft 9".   This will put the top of your 210 (6ft version) 45" + 28" = 73" or about 6'1"

I hope you have the space  :)  Have a great day and show us the outcome :)

-- Jesper

[peterp63]

Re: Using a canister filter instead of a submersible return

Well, the FX5 was an idea because of the high flow rate.  Actually, I have an Ehiem Pro II 2028 that I may be able to use for this if it can "suck out" the water.  Anybody know about these Eheims?  If all else fails, I'll just buy my stinkin' sump pump  

Thanks for the help!

[peterp63]

Re: Using a canister filter instead of a submersible return

Oh.. and I bought fishingaddict's sump.  It's a pretty good size.

[zormer23]

Re: Using a canister filter instead of a submersible return

Good call on buying the sump pump; I pondered the same question once-upon-a-time.  I agree with Zulaab's comments ... it would work without overflow risk except that the canister filter needs to be gravity fed.

[eklikewhoa]

Re: Using a canister filter instead of a submersible return

All canisters will have the whole "gph" rating diminished forcing it to draw water out of the sump.


But since a page worth of people telling you it will either work poorly or not at all is not enough then please test it for yourself. I know there are lots of things I defy when it comes to basic "rules" and I have to try for myself but this my friend is not something worth trying to me.

Why limit the efficiency of your wet/dry with a canister when you don't have to? The flow rate on the fx5 is no where near that of what a good overflow-sump can handle.

Just to let you know....my pro-clear400 on my 125g tank is running a mag12 which is rated for 1200gph.....and that is on my 125g.
Even with that I felt the need to run an additional eheim 2228, rena xp3, 2x 250pgh powerheads and a small mj606 powereing my reactor which is located in the sump.

[Zulaab]

Re: Using a canister filter instead of a submersible return

Ek -- you are well known for your overdoing things..  hehehe :)

Peter,  Eheim like Hagen FX5 will need a gravity feed.  Can you look at the sump and see if there is any markings that tells us what kind of sump you are running.
I am not against adding a second filter to your system, but again I believe personally you are going to be better off having them separated.

[peterp63]

Re: Using a canister filter instead of a submersible return

http://houstonfishbox.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5001

Link to the sump that I bought from fishingaddict.  Good deal, but needs bioballs (or scrubbies) and some fittings...

Yeah, I think I'll go with the sump pump (maybe mag 1800).  I'll use the Ehiem Pro II as a secondary filtration to a reverse flow UGF that will cover 1/3 or 2/3 of the bottom of the tank.  The other 1/3 to 2/3 will be covered with a regular UGF plate(s) and have a powerhead attached.  Thanks for all of the help guys!

[geoff_tropheus]

Re: Using a canister filter instead of a submersible return

Canisters work using a siphon.  What will happen if you dont provide the minimum height difference is that you will starve flow on the canister pump which will cause it to cavitate, heatup, and wearout faster.  Every canister is different and the setup instructions always have a minimum height for proper siphon, and a maximum height for alowable head of the pump and water column that will not cause the canister to leak past any o-ring seals and onto the floor.

The best thing you can do is get a RIO pump with a proper flowrate rated for your overflow capacity, which may cost you about $25-30.  Then if you want completely setup the FX5 as a independant filtration system on the tank.

You need to match the rated flow rate of your overflow to your pump.  Otherwise what goes in will not go out fast enough and it will spill. Or...the pump will pumpout the sump faster than it can fill, and cause pump cavitation problems.

Personally, the FX5 is really not that good of a Bio-Filter, it is however rather good mechanical.  USe your wetdry to handle all your bio-load and use the FX5 for mechanical filtration, and any chemical filtration you may want to add.

Best of luck man..

Geoff

[peterp63]

Re: Using a canister filter instead of a submersible return

Thanks for the tips, geoff!

[MikeWhoTruong]

Re: Using a canister filter instead of a submersible return

You might also want to check if your overflow box can handle a Mag 18 at 6 ft lift. I have a Dual Overflow on my 200g running a Mag 12 @6ft and the overflow box keeps up spot on. i.e. any more flow and the overflows wont be able to keep up. The general rule is for each U-tube in the overflow box you can push roughly a 500g pump at zero head. There are alot of other factors as well, but thats the general rule I go by. Each 1" hole can drain roughly 750g at a one inch of head. This is not to a science, its only what i observed through the many many systems I have done. but thats the general rule for me.