Should I try to rescue these fish?

[mnemenoi]

I am not certain the removal of the plants would help, they are likely exhibiting aggression due to their stress and small tank. I believe that possibly adding something else to break their line of sight and allow the weaker males to hide could be beneficial. It is likely a mute point in a ten gallon though, as anywhere they go is going to be an issue. All you can really do is hope that the population density will spread their aggression over the group and not focus upon the weakest member.

[afremont]

So far, the aggression seems to be between the strongest fish. They don't seem to be causing any actual harm to each other, though it sure looks bad to watch them. They seem to be inviting each other into the sparring, rather than doing any chasing. The weakest fish are staying hidden in the plants and the rest are moving around freely without much taunting (but there is a little) from the show offs. Reminds me of what I've read about pink kissers and their pushing contests. I'm glad to see that none of them seem to be picking on the weakest ones.

As for the population problem, I'll probably move the stronger ones to a larger, empty tank that is already decorated some, but I'll add some more fake plants. If they seem like they can't wait a couple of days to move, I'll put them all into another empty 20 gallon tank that I can make into a hospital tank annex. Thank goodness for the dollar a gallon sale, tanks are cheap. ;-)

What do you think is most likely to have caused such a quick turnaround in their apparent health? The water change and salt, the ick medicine or the antibiotics?

[afremont]

Here's some pics of my setup in my ham shack/man cave/whatever you want to call it:

[mnemenoi]

Hmmm, my first thought would be water quality. They were possibly in Nitrite/ammonia rich water at the store, which would account for a quick shift as they are no longer breathing polluted and poisonous water. The salt can certainly assist them occasionally, but they do well without any salt. The Ick treatment and antibiotics would both take quite some time (2-3 days) to start relieving symptoms, unless they were actually suffering from some sort of gill fluke or parasite that was affected by your treatment. I am glad it worked out well and salute you for stepping in for their defense. I am looking forward to hearing about their progress and what seemed to work and what did not. I am certain that many aquarists will appreciate your experiance and advice.

A few questions, will you be doing water changes and how often do you have them planned? What temp are you keeping the tank at and do you know the water parameters? I know dwarf gouramis seem to dislike hard water, could perhaps this have been another contributing factor? I believe you had stated this tank was using a sponge filter, with all the medication being put into the tank how has this affected your water conditions and biological cycle of the tank especially in the next few weeks. Keep us posted and looking forward to hearing their updates...

[afremont]

I agree about the water. As I understand it, a few dead fish could push the ammonia to levels that cause the ammonia eating bacteria to stall. Even if they do adjust (because they multiply much faster than the next in line bacteria) then you can end up with a nitrite surge and if it gets high enough, the nitrite-eating nitrate-producing bacteria can cease to function as well. Dwarf Gouramis are reportedly very susceptible to high nitrite levels. I should have tested the store water, but I was in too much of a hurry to think about it.

From what I've read this afternoon, the Maricyn 1 is the least likely thing to have helped. It's just not that effective on the common freshwater problems. Maricyn 2 or a sulfa drug would probably have been a better first guess IMO.

When my mosquito fish started flashing, the QuickCure seemed to put a real fast end to it. They never showed outward signs of ick like white specs. But on those fish I was able to crank the temp to 90F and not worry. I also added salt to their water. I don't know if it helped these guys, but they definitely seemed to be having some gill problems, so I didn't want to take any chances and used the ick medicine.

My water is pristine for now, as it is fresh. I have a quietflow filter running on it that I took from another tank, but the Maricyn likely killed what effectiveness it might have had, not to mention that it never had this kind of bioload on it before. I'm expecting it to not be able to keep up and to launch the tank into a new cycle so..... I will be doing daily 50%(or more if necessary) water changes for five days while I complete the medication. I have the temperature at just above 80F, but I think they could take higher temps without stressing them. I might switch to the Maricyn two for the five days. According to Mardel, you can use them safely together, but I may stop giving them the Maricyn 1 since it's more for pop-eye and fin-rot, neither of which I am seeing.

[R_sustaita]

wow, i do feel i just took a fish vet class. you 2 have been giving alot of usefull information, mainly for us that are not so active on the aqua world.

[afremont]

This morning finds one of the blues at the top hanging at the filter outlet. He had some stringy white poop that was gradually getting longer. I fed the tank but he seemed disinterested so I made a 1 gallon ER out of a beta tank that started all this fish madness. I netted the blue and put him in and gave him some blood worms and brine shrimp in hopes of getting him to eat something. He took a few bites, but mostly sat so the current from the airstone would keep water flowing thru his gills. He hung around the mid layer of the tank.

I also have a flame that is moving around like he's ok for a while, then sits in the corner for a couple of minutes like he needs to take short breaks. He pants a little, but mostly is opening and closing his mouth but not holding his gills wide open. I really feel that something is affecting their oxygen uptake. Maybe some brown blood disease from high nitrites at the store?

After doing a 1/3 water change (ammonia and nitrites were zero surprisingly), I put the blue back with the others. I gave them their quick cure dose and added maracyn 1 and maracyn 2 to the water. I'm concerned that the white poop could be from internal parasites, and I don't think the maracyn or quickcure will really help in either case.

I was reading about gill trematodes and how they can cause gill damage without inducing inflamation; they can also become and internal problem. I wish I had a microscope, but I'd also need a mortality to see anything. The whole tank also perked up a bit after the water change and the medicine. I'm sorta feeling that the quickcure is somewhat responsible as they seem to have some immediate reaction to it when I put it in the water. When I had the blue in a 1 gallon container this morning I put in a drop of quickcure as an experiment and he seemed to be feeling a little better shortly afterward (he stopped hanging at the surface). I'm thinking some kind of gill flukes might be the real culprit and that the antibiotics aren't the key. I'm continuing them anyway for five days since they shouldn't cause any harm as far as I know and flukes or trematodes could cause a secondary infection anyway.

Man, I thought I'd just get some fish and feed them on occasion. Now I see you should be a chemist, a biologist and a veterinarian to even contemplate keeping fish. Not to mention the need to be an electrician, a plumber and a carpenter once you really start to get into the hobby. Thanks to the internet and resources like this site, I have learned more about fish in the last few months than I did in all the years of keeping them when I was much younger.

Anyone know where to buy potassium permanganate crystals locally? Sears hardware doesn't seem to carry it anymore, guess they needed the room for more kitchen appliances. :/ Funny, the EPA doesn't think that PP is a good disinfectant according to one of their reports.

[Warlock]

GRAINGERS sells PP

[mnemenoi]

I would recommend possibly using some sort of Parasite Guard or antiparasitic. They are well known to be succeptable to them and although you'll never eliminate them entirely, a good dosing should go a long way in reducing and controlling their numbers. Perhaps the quickcure is giving them some sort of temporary relief, either tranquilizing or reducing the irritation?

Perhaps giving Coppersafe, Parasite Guard, or Clout a chance?

I second being a person of many hats when you are a aquarist.

[afremont]

In retrospect, I wish I'd started treating them with copper safe instead of quickcure. I'm kinda scared to switch in mid stream now. I know that coppersafe is ok to use with the maracyn antibiotics, I'm not positive about the quickcure but it hasn't killed anybody yet. Do you think I should do a 100% change at start treating with coppersafe or Parasite Guard instead of the quickcure? I was reading about the praziquantel and was thinking of getting some and starting treatment with that after the third (and supposedly final) quickcure treatment. I'd try some kind of internal antiparasitic and antibiotic, but the two weakest guys just really don't want to eat much if anything.

I'm thinking of putting some kind of breeder cage in the tank to issolate the two weakest fish so that I can monitor their eating and keep the other fish from pestering them until Friday. At that point, I'm thinking of moving the strongest fish to the empty/decorated 20 gallon tank and stop treating those fish with antibiotics, just use something containing praziquantel (Parasite Guard) since they seem to feel pretty well and don't really show any signs of infection that I can see. This would let me tend to the weakest fish without having the strong ones annoying them. If I see any downhill movement in the stronger ones after moving them maybe that would indicate that the antibiotics were actually necessary. I could then just begin the treatment again in that tank. Seems like the only way to be sure what works is to split them up and treat them somewhat differently until it becomes less of a guessing game as to what is the problem. I've decided that the 20 gallon tank is to be their future permanent home anyway so I'm not worried about contamination of that tank.

[R_sustaita]

i believe that changing them would be a wise decision. other wise you keep giving them meds and they may not needing them. unless they do show weakness again.

and i do agree on the Multi-career fish keeping brings us. you forgot glass fixer.

[afremont]

I put a bunch more cheap plants in the tank. That seems to have calmed things down even more. Of course now I can't tell how many fish are in the tank either. I found that API General Cure is basically the same as Tetra's Parasite Guard. They both are a combination of praziquantel and metronidazole. It's really hard to just sit and wait, but I probably should do that for at least 24 more hours since I started them on the Maracyn 2 (minocyclene) this morning.

The blue guy just sits on the bottom looking beat. He doesn't look like he's on death's door just yet, but he doesn't look too feisty either. Maybe he's just trying to get some rest since I have been keeping the lights off. If he starts panting heavily, then he's out of there and on a new regimen right away. I can't bear to just let them die if I haven't tried everything. The flame is still doing the resting then moving around thing when I'm pestering them. All the other fish act fairly well so far. They look more spry than allot of the ones I usually see in the store anyway. The two flames that constantly flare to each other are quite entertaining, but even they are calm for the most part right now.

The extra fake plants seem to keep everyone from seeing everyone else at the same time; that seems to be helping since everybody can kinda hide now. The top part of the tank is still open since the plants are short. They are top-fin plants and they have black stonelike bases to hold them down. Perfect for a tank with no substrate, just drop them in and they stay down. The short ones are cheap too.

[R_sustaita]

there is nothing wrong with cheap plants, jajajaja. anything that makes the little guys happier and healthy. I can no comment on treat me as all i have treat was ick. but i am learning alot.

[afremont]

Well, I couldn't resist medling again so I put the two weakest fish in the 20g that has sat ready for about a week now. I did this because they weren't looking any better and the nitrites were starting to increase in the hospital tank. I sort of expected this, but I'm afraid that with the huge bioload that all the fish will die before the beneficial bacteria catches up even with large water changes.

I figured that it would be better to leave the healthier fish in the hospital tank and move the weaker ones to brand new water that won't rapidly taint up on them. I put some General Cure (basically the same as Parasite Guard) in the new tank. This regimen requires that I wait 48 hours and do a 25% water change then treat again for 48 hours. The medicine covers the bases with internal and external parasite treatment as well as a broad spectrum antibiotic in case of any secondary infections. This should do a better job than the QuickCure and Maracyn combination since they really didn't address internal parasites. The down side is that I have to use twice as much medicine since it is a 20 gallon tank. The up side is that I only need to do two treatments that work over the course of four days.

The blue on is sitting on the bottom, but not breathing as hard. The flame gourami is now hovering at mid tank level while resting, as it should be. When I first put him in, he was panting a bit and sat on the floor for a while. Fish doing ok until they exert themselves is a big symptom of nitrIte toxicity otherwise known as brown blood disease. There doesn't seem to be any cure for it, but it can be completely prevented by just using a little salt in the water. A tiny amount of salt goes a really long way in terms of protecting fish from high nitrIte levels. Dwarf Gouramis are particularly sensitive to nitrite poisoning. NitrIte poisoning can lead to all kinds of secondary problems due the greatly weakened condition of the fish. It can also cause fish to die suddenly with no preliminary warning and no outward signs of illness. Many can live for a while until they over exert themselves, then they drop dead.

Since it seems unlikely that the blues came in the same bag as the flames from the supplier, it stands to reason that the problem may not have come with the fish. On the other hand, the blues seemed to die off first, but there are three left and a flame passed at the store the day I brought them home.

[R_sustaita]

Well i guess those are good news. Even better news no one has died yet.