when the chlorimines hit the suburbs

[fshfrk]

Bring that carbon filter and we will repack it with fresh pellitized activated carbon and catylitic carbon mix.

[76dragon]

I can't sell to you. I will bring u a couple lbs next time I come up. Share the wealth...

[fshfrk]

I bought a 5 lb bottle of sodium thiosulfate, working good so far. Probably gonna last for a really long time.

30 year supply nice. you should sell some and get your money back. I will take a pound.

[76dragon]

I bought a 5 lb bottle of sodium thiosulfate, working good so far. Probably gonna last for a really long time.

[myjohnson]

One thought I had... why not use TWO products?
- Start with sodium thiosulfate (homemade "zip drops"), which leaves you with water + ammonia
- Use some (less?) of another product like Amquel+ or Prime to take care of the ammonia
Pro's? Con's? Not worth the effort? Even worse overdose/deoxygenation problem? (I have a bag of sodium thiosulfate crystals in the closet; seems a shame not to find a use for them!)

Why not get a bottle and not use any product?

[fshfrk]

About the cost of the carbon filtration it's much cheaper than dechlorinators. It removes alot of the other bad stuff in our water too. I just use zipp drops to dechlorinate stuff I've bleached. So keep the zipp crystals.

[HepCaribou]

Interesting carbon articles although they read (as they are) as Calgon marketing literature. Carbon filtration has always struck me as really expensive, but maybe I ought to look into it more.

Some other things I've wondered about the dechlorinators that handle chloramines ...

Canisters do not oxygenate. wet/drys totally saturate the water with oxygen. Take the new amquel+ for example it's a chemical called sodium bisulfite. It's a notorious deoxygenater. The old amquell was sodium thiosulfate. deoxegenates much less. You could over dose with the old amquell and not reduce the oxegen content to hurt the fish. The new amquell+ I would not. Sodium bisulfate will pull the oxegen out and if you only run canisters they can not handle the ammonia from the chlorimines=dead fish.
I hope this makes sense. maybe someone can help me explain this?

First, I'm 99.9% certain the old Amquel was not sodium thiosulfate as the whole marketing point of Amquel was that it neutralized ammonia, which sodium thiosulfate (zip drops) does not. I don't know what chemical they used, though.

The Amquel+ stuff certainly seems different, smells different, and claims a whole lot more special abilities than the old bottle (I have 2 of them here side-by-side).

Now, about overdosing ... I too am in the habit of "more is better" and pretty-generously overdose my dechlorinator after losing several tank-fuls of fish at the recommended doses some years ago. With the "new stuff" (assuming everyone's product is now based on sodium bisulfate?), if you overdose ... what actually is happening?

The extra S2 should only be freed if it is neutralizing chloramine/chlorine gas molecules, right? So why would an overdose be that much worse than a "sufficient" dose? Or does it react with other stuff in the tank also (freeing more S2 to bind up oxygen)?

About canisters: They should handle the ammonia just fine -- lots of bio-media there -- provided there is enough oxygen in the water (fish gasping at the surface?).

After looking into this i never want to use dechlorinator again , it all stays in the water nothing is removed only 'detoxified'.

Unless it were converted to a gas, where would it go? But, if ammonia is "detoxified" then processed by the bio-filter -> nitrite -> nitrate, it's effectively removed (well, the nitrate builds up, but my plants devour it).

Seachem's website says the "bound ammonia" will stay bound (reaction won't reverse in the tank) till the bacteria process it. Other manufacturers say essentially the same thing.

"Prime works by removing chlorine from the water and then binds with ammonia until it can be consumed by your biological filtration (chloramine minus chlorine = ammonia). The bond is not reversible and ammonia is still available for your bacteria to consume."

What is this "nontoxic ammonia" compound and just how non-toxic is it?

One thought I had... why not use TWO products?
- Start with sodium thiosulfate (homemade "zip drops"), which leaves you with water + ammonia
- Use some (less?) of another product like Amquel+ or Prime to take care of the ammonia
Pro's? Con's? Not worth the effort? Even worse overdose/deoxygenation problem? (I have a bag of sodium thiosulfate crystals in the closet; seems a shame not to find a use for them!)

What I'm still wondering about "it" is what else is in Houston water besides chloramine/chlorine that I might need to worry about?

EDIT: This Seachem article (link) actually answered a couple of my questions; not super-technical, but more-informative than other info I've seen.

[cichlid1409]

http://www.calgoncarbon-as.com/documents/CatalyticCarbonNewWeaponinChloramineBattle.pdf

interesting read about chloramines and the use of catalytic carbon as opposed to activated carbon for chlorine/chloramine removal. catalytic carbon is like carbon on steroids.

and another...

http://www.calgoncarbon.com/documents/TreatingH2SWellswithCatalyticCarbon.pdf

another

http://www.calgoncarbon.com/carbon_products/documents/Centaur12x40.pdf

[cichlid1409]

I always wanted to get a drip doser and add trace elements contiually.

I don't know if I would do that.....theres no way to test for trace elements.

[fshfrk]

I use kent essential trace elements and minerals. RO water is stripped of everything so ya RO right is perfect. I always wanted to get a drip doser and add trace elements contiually.

[MeuserReef]

So do you all think that I might be better off using tap water that has been run through a carbon filter?

Ive also used a product from Kent called "RO Right" which claims to reintroduce minerals n' stuff back into the (pure) RO water. Any thoughts on this stuff?

[cichlid1409]

1409 -did you see all the other by products from the dechlorination prossess. SCARY!

I know very scary stuff .... After looking into this i never want to use dechlorinator again , it all stays in the water nothing is removed only 'detoxified' . carbon filter or RO/DI only for me.

[fshfrk]

I use zipp drops and have no problem with ph. but I only use 1/2 the amount I should because I run my water thru carbon.
I only drink carbon filtered water. It makes sense to me to do the same for the fish.

1409 -did you see all the other by products from the dechlorination prossess. SCARY!

[cichlid1409]

john you really got me wondering about the science of why sodium bisulfite uses so much more O2 when using for chloramines ....so here it is


5NaHSO3 + 5NH2Cl + 5H2O -> 5NaHSO4 + 5NH3 + 5HCl
Sodium Bisulfite, monochloramine, sodium Bisulfate, Ammonia, Hydrochloric acid


Na2S2O3 + 4NH2Cl + 5H2O -> 2NaHSO4 + 4NH3 + 4HCl
Sodium Thiosulfate, Monochloramine, sodium Bisulfate, Ammonia, Hydrochloric acid


these are just the first simple equations in the line of equations and didn't want to type it all out but this shows that greater quantities of Bisulfate is used to treat the same amount of water and chloramine. A by product of these series of reactions is Sulfer gas (positive charge) which readily bonds with oxygen (negative charge) in your tank and is released at the surface of the water. By using more bisulfate to affect the same amount of water as thiosulfate does you are producing more Sulfur gas and reducing the amount of oxygen in your water.

Also , if you havn't noticed already both products produce Hydrochloric acid which will drop your Ph but commercial dechlorinators add buffers .

Anybody make Zip Drops and have a problem with Ph?

I am not a chemist and have never claimed to be so pleae be gentle on me if any of this is incorrect.

[RMD55]

The other reason for adding chloramines is the organics found surface water react with chlorine to form carcinogens, chloramines do not. So water treatment plants are being forced by the EPA to use chloramines. There are other better ways of treating water but they cost more. Chlorine and chloramines are bad for the fish and not good for us either.