Breeder Awards Points

[mnemenoi]

I think once I can get everything a bit calmer here at work, I'll try and work with everyone and see about some preliminary stuff to toss about and maybe hammer out something a bit more workable. Otherwise I have a week off coming up and can probably do a bit then.

[troy tucker]

I like this. It does have some holes in it but all good ideas do. I my self breed one kind of fish but may do some others. It would give me more interest in the auctions and more interest in the club.

[HiepSTA]

it seems that armthehomeless is much more experienced than I am at inverts/shrimp, but im willing to help out for the inverts category, but i really only know about shrimps, so snails and crabs and such would be out of my knowledge range

[sunkenmetal]

best thing to do is to have a few people come up with lists and then vote at your meetings

[LooksLater]

Yes! See, I knew there was a bunch of stuff I couldn't come up with...

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[johnnymisty]

Don't forget corals for us salt keepers, reptiles/amphibians

[LooksLater]

I am not certain as to how GHAC will be handling previously bred fish, perhaps starting everyone at an even number. As to the points system, it is again another issue we will look into. I myself prefer a graduated system of scales. I agree that certain species are far easier for us houstonians, but softer water fish are far more difficult. Wild fish and fish that are threatened or exctinct in the wild would certainly be of concern to me, but there are many folk in the hobby with numerous areas of interest and I myself want this to include a little something far all aquarists, especially beginning breeders.

I am leaning towards everyone starting at 0. I think it would encourage beginners, and obviously if we're going to ask for even light documentation (a photo, etc) it will become tricky to award "back-points" fairly...I know, personally, I don't keep good records OR have a good memory! And while everyone starting at zero will encourage new breeders, it seems logical that those with the prior experience and who already have breeding colonies and set-ups will end up pulling ahead a little faster, anyway. Does that make sense?

Won't this program make breeders cycle through species they hold in their tanks? That kinda discourages folks who keep the same fish for years from entering the program.

I'm kinda worried about that too. I'm all for responsible fishkeeping, and I'd hate to see this turning into wet-pets getting dumped into bad care/no care. But it occurred to me as I was dreaming over some new shrimp and things, most people's pocketbook will limit them. There are exceptions, but I think most people who would join a program like this are normal people, with bills and lives...and thus will hesitate to shuck out the bucks to rotate their species, breed and sell them for a loss just to shuck out more money and do it all over again. It might be different if there were solid financial rewards, but for bragging points and maybe some fry money? There might be a few who want to rotate heavily, but I wouldn't think it'd last long. Is that naive of me? Lol.

to keep people breeding the same species you could

Awards points for each group of fry.

then bonus points for difficulty and how rare they are.

So if you are breeding something like convicts you get points for the fry but less bonus points for difficulty and rarity. But since they breed like rabbits you get points for each batch of fry...

If you are breeding something that is harder to breed you get more points so it would all work out in the end.

I'm pretty sure this is the direction to go. It makes sense to have varying points based on varying difficulty and rarity.

Now, drafting up the points lists is going to be the fun part! So, just spitballing... but who was wanting to volunteer their experience for categories again? Oh, and what are the categories going to be? Plants, inverts, fish? What am I forgetting??

[Fancyfish]

to keep people breeding the same species you could

Awards points for each group of fry.

then bonus points for difficulty and how rare they are.

So if you are breeding something like convicts you get points for the fry but less bonus points for difficulty and rarity. But since they breed like rabbits you get points for each batch of fry...

If you are breeding something that is harder to breed you get more points so it would all work out in the end.

That is an interesting idea. I like it.

[sunkenmetal]

to keep people breeding the same species you could

Awards points for each group of fry.

then bonus points for difficulty and how rare they are.

So if you are breeding something like convicts you get points for the fry but less bonus points for difficulty and rarity. But since they breed like rabbits you get points for each batch of fry...

If you are breeding something that is harder to breed you get more points so it would all work out in the end.

[SunnyHouTX]

Won't this program make breeders cycle through species they hold in their tanks? That kinda discourages folks who keep the same fish for years from entering the program.

[mnemenoi]

I am not certain as to how GHAC will be handling previously bred fish, perhaps starting everyone at an even number. As to the points system, it is again another issue we will look into. I myself prefer a graduated system of scales. I agree that certain species are far easier for us houstonians, but softer water fish are far more difficult. Wild fish and fish that are threatened or exctinct in the wild would certainly be of concern to me, but there are many folk in the hobby with numerous areas of interest and I myself want this to include a little something far all aquarists, especially beginning breeders.

[Fancyfish]

Back when Houston Aquarium Society was more active, they had a BAP and HAP award program. It was one point per species with plants and fish seperate. Documentation or donation was required to recieve the points. It was a program I participated in as that is something I'm very interested in. I'm not a member of your club, but that could just persuade me to join. I have to say I've not read everything that's been posted and maybe this question has already been answered. Are you going to start everyone at 0 or will people get points for fish they had previously bred?

[Doug A]

Back in the day (about '91-'96) I was the BAP/HAP chairmen at the HAS. The system I used was one point for each species or wild population (like a sub species). The reason I did not used a system that gave more points to some species was that point system I saw was for a part of the country were the water was very soft. In those areas African Cichlids can be hard, and some fish that are hard for us are easy.

[TonyO]

Hybrids can be a very controversial topic. Some people are very passionate about the topic so it would probably be best to leave them out.

Well, there is a way to include them, if one wanted. . . a person would only get points for one of the parental species.

[TonyO]

I'm game for this. I think it will be something we need to discuss at a meeting. From my understanding, the most "successful" way of doing the breeder points is to have a scale. Also depending on the base currency, you could set breeding at a given value. Things like Mbuna or guppies would be a 1, but another more difficult fish would be worth 5 points, and rare/never before bred fish would be something much higher. I've also seen bonus points given for documentation of the breeding from start to finish.

That was one of my issues with the last system. They had mbuna at like 25 points, so anyone interested in those would rack up points quickly, yet my species of South American mouthbrooding cichlids were worth like 15 points (and I believe I was the only person who had them in the club, at that time). The point system is important.

sounds interesting if it applies to inverts and plants too? although i dont breed critters much, they occasionally grow out if no one eats them so it wouldnt take much just to get me to foster them better lol. i do agree that we, as hobbyists, have a duty to minimize the effects of out hobby on wild populations. the other aspect is that we can sometimes prevent a species from disappearing from the trade altogether. i have seen far too many herps go that route

We also had a Horticulture points program. I'm sure one could do something similar with inverts, if they so chose.

+1! I would be down for this!

We need more people posting quality breeding and set up information.

Exactly! We had to write articles for the newsletter. Again, sharing the information is often the most important thing. We had people that would write articles in what looked like 10 minutes, and they weren't very helpful.

from the link tim posted, a particular breeder will get points on a one time basis for breeding a particular species or subspecies. i think this would be the fair way of doing it although the breeder would still bank on the auction

Yes, points for a species (or subspecies, if specified) should only happen once. . .

What would happen at the auctions is that they would get flooded with whatever species the top breeders were working on. So, one of them would get fry, give them (and the parents) to the others, then we'd have 30 bags of the things at the auctions. That was one of my concerns with these types of programs, but with enough variety and participation, that would hopefully be negated.

I would hope, as well, that much of the actual record keeping on this wouldn't fall to Tim or the other officers. Let them handle the meetings, and get some others involved in an official capacity. Obviously, they wouldn't operate in a bubble, but I've seen great hobbyists burn out not because of the actual fishkeeping, but because of club business.

Like I said, if this were done properly, and points didn't become the main focus of the club and club business, then a program like this does have real value. . .