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  • muppies

    I was reading about a woman crossing a shenops male molly with a female guppy. She has about six muppies. There are pictures and everything at the goodied website.

    max

  • #2
    Re: muppies

    I've heard that this was possible, but never actually seen one. I'll go over to that site and check it out! I'm not sure what I think about it, however....
    "Millennium hand and shrimp!"

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    • #3
      Re: muppies

      Oh, neat! I was relieved to find that she's not just haphazardly putting the two together, but really taking a scientific approach to it. I especially liked that she had no plans to incorporate them into the trade. Thanks, Max, I'll keep myself updated on that one!
      "Millennium hand and shrimp!"

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      • #4
        Re: muppies

        I think it is especially important to keep some of the endangered native species pure. We really don't know exactly when a species becomes threatened sometimes so it is important to keep all the native species pure. Having said that I think it is OK to use excess fish for cancer research or even hobby research. There is a responsibility to maintain the fish pure if one does the research. Some fish, especially the guppies are produced and selected, genetically engineered so to speak for eye candy. This serves a purpose to get new people and children into the hobby so I think it is good. If she were to try to pass these fish off as guppies or mollies I think it would be wrong. I think dying or tatooing fish is ridiculous and especially wrong if deceit is intended. Yes it brings up a lot of moral/ethical questions. My views are not necessarilly the correct ones. What do the rest of you think?

        I do hobby research with guppies. I am trying to fix some molly strains that resulted from some one elses molly research. lol I maintain Poecilia latipinna from Hunting Bayou, and a few goodieds and Xiphophorus mostly with collection data.

        max

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        • #5
          Re: muppies

          I have some Endler-Guppy mixes.  I don't knwo yet if they're fertile.  It seems the scientific community is still trying to figure that one out, since if they can have fertile babies, they're not actually different species, and there has been much ado about THAT!  Anyway, I just thought I'd share my two cents on half-breeds.

          I would NEVER give away or sell my little Gupplers without divulging their origins, nor would I condone such an action.  For me, though, it is a non-issue, because I want to keep all of mine, since they combine the features I like about both types.  They're small (so I can have more of them in my tank), they have pretty caudals (like Guppies), and they have pretty markings on their bodies (like Endlers).  I think they are some of the prettiest fish I've ever seen.  And they weren't planned--it just happened!  Too cool.  :-)

          Anybody have a link to the Muppies site?  I'd like to see those.  Anyone have any other neat crosses?  Personally, I think I'd have called them Gollies!  Maybe it depends on the sire, as is the case with Ligers and Ti-lions?
          Brandi :-)

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          • #6
            Re: muppies


            dont know if it'll come out as a link.

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            • #7
              Re: muppies

              well my friend of the endlers, let me explain you something.
              for starters endlers are already an endangered species, for second its well know endlers and guppies, produce fertile hybrids
              and as of 3rd) once you do this accidentally or not, neither of the species could be reverse, to the pure state.
              so its damaging for both species.
              anyway there is already lots of people doing this, some for bussines , some for fun , some for accident.
              the truth is endlers and guppys are diferent species.
              when you produce and hybrid, some are fertile some are not, in this case its the first.

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              • #8
                Re: muppies

                The endlers, Poecilia wingeii and the guppies Poecilia reticulata first caused me to realize that the definition of species has changed. Nearly all the Xiphophorus family, platys and swords can hybridize and produce viable fertile offspring. Sometimes two species are just fish seperated by a geographical boundary now. They can also be distinguished by diferences in social behavior, appearance or the ability to produce fertile viable offspring. Everything was black and white when I was a boy and now a lot is gray. The name Poecilia wingeii is new and not in use everywhere in the scientific community yet, but it appears that it will be in the near future. The significance is that guppies are not endangered but Poecilia wingeii are so if they were still part of Poecilia reticulata, P. reticulata are not endangered.

                My naming convention is old school chauvinism. I name my guppy strains after the sellers ie. Grigsby purple and Ramirez purple. My intent was to keep them seperate until they were not viable and fertile. Unfortunately that problem occured quickly so I crossed the Ramirez male with a Grigsby female and got a more hardy strain. Now I use the male sirname first, Ramsby purple. Gollies does sound more interesting. I don't think she used either name.

                max

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                • #9
                  Re: muppies

                  I updated the link for you. hmmm... very familiar theme.  8O

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                  • #10
                    Re: muppies

                    See?  I knew the debate about species was still on!  Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it.  Anyway, I happened to buy my Endler pair from my local Petco, being sold as Guppies.  I thought they were interesting and wanted to have them in my tank.  If I hadn't bought them, someone else would have, and most likely that someone wouldn't have known about their endangered status either.  So I don't feel too badly about my actions.  Sadly enough, little girl Endler died within a few days--she had been sick at the time of purchase and I wasn't able to save her--and little boy Endler died just a month or so ago, with no warning.  He may have just been old, I don't know.  I don't feel like they could have had a huge impact on the survival of their race (which is my personal opinion about the different "species" of these fish--that they are simply different races), since they were both so short-lived after I acquired them.

                    I believed at the time that Petco must have gotten them as donations, perhaps unwanted "culled" fish from a local breeder, since they were in their own tank and had no label or price information.  I paid for them as though they were guppies, because, at the time, neither I nor the sales people at Petco knew them to be anything different.  I found pictures of Endlers online in the following week and concluded that that must be what I had purchased.  I cannot be certain that they were pure Endler stock either, so this all may be a moot point.

                    I must disagree with the opinion that crossbreeding inherently weakens a race.  Offspring do not change the nature of their parents.  Had I found out about my Endler's endangered status, I probably would have tried to get him to someone who was breeding them exclusively.  However, the fact that he had already impregnated a guppy or two has no bearing on the purity of his race, should he have been returned to them to breed "pure" again.

                    I understand the desire to keep the lines as pure as possible.  Just don't get so caught up in bloodline that you fail to notice when the gene pool is too weak to sustain the race.  At some point, it may be necessary to introduce new genes, which would change the race, but might sustain it.  Change is ultimately inevitable and necessary.  Evolution is not a theory.  If Endlers are becoming scarce, perhaps it is time.  We cannot, and should not, save every single variety of organism from extinction.

                    So, I've had my little rant.  I'll get off the soapbox now.  I guess I just felt like I was being attacked undeservedly.  If I find another Endler, by all means, I will send it to live with its own kind.  Just stay off my back about the lovely fish in my aquarium.  It's not like I plan to release them into the wild or anything.

                    Brandi

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                    • #11
                      Re: muppies

                      well brandi nobody its attacking anybody, it is just an opinion.
                      unfortunaly we have diferent points of view.
                      but be sure , you cant reverse the process, once the endlers are mating with guppies(especially female endler and male guppies), even if you do several backcrosses you never going to have the pure endler that you get in case you get one.
                      it just a small lesson on keeping animals in that wild state.
                      because i think thats one fo the goals of responsible aquarium fishkeeping.
                      someday maybe this fish will be extint on the wild, it wouldnt be nice to have exactly that same fish, to gite it back to nature?

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                      • #12
                        Re: muppies

                        its almost impossible to say it never gets back to the original because any guppies we have in the trade typical come from countless generations of breeding for color and different tail characteristics. plus to say endles are endangered seems odd with them still being for sale. i remember when what is sold as endlers guppies were refered to as feeder guppies because they didnt have big pretty tails. but if you took a cross strain of endler guppie and bred it back to endler (hopefully from different stock) several generations you will see something so close both physically/ and genetically to "pure" endler stock as to not matter. and they are all hybrids of one kind or another. just different mutations of a similar species. even with pure stock to pure stock there will stil be many differences simply because of being in captivity. such as larger grow and increase longivity. the rate at which these fish breed in captivity is astounding and the generations they can go through incredable. it only takes 2 generations of breeding foxes together to start to get variations that dont normall ever happen in foxes (aka domestication of the dog) how many endlers generations have we had. and what of guppies. there can simply not be a  "true" pure strain of endlers available and if it is any we might have in our tanks obviously cant be them because we got our from a fish store and stores cant carry endangered species. so if there is a pure strain somewhere, where do you think they will get new genetic stock when there's becomes less viable do to inbreeding. from the closes hybrid available. thats evolution. you have to have new blood or you eventually die out. witness the grow of the US do to immigration (just an example not trying to start a new debate)
                        Never fear I is here
                        David Abeles
                        Vice President
                        Greater Houston Aquarium Club

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                        • #13
                          Re: muppies

                          Sometimes the in breeding gets rid of all the lethal genes and results in very hardy stock of almost clones. There are lines of the Xiphophorus at the Xiphophorus center that are that way. They have ove 100 generations in some cases. They are havig problems with other lines and use artificial insemination in some cases to produce the fish that they need. Sperm is being stored cryogenically in some cases but if there is no female I don't know how they could produce a pure strain? These fish are used for cancer research but there are lines being maintained. They offer these fish for sale to the public with collection data when there is excess for their maintenance and research.

                          The reason the native fish are threatened in the wild is because they compete with humans for habitat. When we release species into the wild sometimes they take over and displase the natives. Hobbiest do some of this but our goverment stocked all the local bayous with Gambusia afinis years ago for mosquito control. Now these fish threaten some of the endangered Gambusia species in Texas. Fish farmers also introduce new species to produce  food for humans. Sometimes we pollute the water from chemical plants, farming, and sewage plants. Also we use up all the water from the little lakes and springs where the fish live. We have to live but there must be some way to set aside some little bit of water for these fish. If some one wants to do some hobby research and maintain some of the endangered species as well I think it would be a good thing. The HLA club members and I may have a few fish in the future and the Xiphophorus center is nearby. I am sure there are fish avaliable at the ALA and at the goodied website.

                          My views may not be the most correct ones. This is a controversial topic and we live in a free country. This is  a wonderful website. It is good!

                          max

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                          • #14
                            Re: muppies

                            I do agree that someone, somewhere, should be working to keep pure bloodlines.  Kudos and my appreciation and respect to you if you are one of those people.  My point, I suppose, had been to say that pure bloodlines isn't the main goal of everyone with an aquarium.  Sometimes, like in my case, a person just wants attractive, healthy fish in their aquarium.  All the fish I have purchased have come from regular pet stores, so they're likely not anything pure to begin with.  Likewise, while I do have a couple of netting enclosures for breeding and rescuing fry, I don't have multiple tanks set up like many of the members of this board.  I am not breeding large scale by any means, and, like I've said, I would never release my fish into the wild, and I would never give them away without disclosing their background.  You know, that my fish are mutts.  Beautiful mutts, but mutts nonetheless.  :-)

                            This board is great.  And yes, we all have our own, equally valid, opinions.  I'm glad we have a space to share them.
                            Brandi :-)

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                            • #15
                              Re: muppies

                              I was surprised that they were produced naturally. I would like to know if the muppies are sterile. Maybe the females could be bred back to male guppies or male mollies naturally or artificially. A sailfin delta tailed fish the size of a molly with some of the guppy colors would look neat! We could call them gollies if you like. If they turned out to be sterile hybrids everyone would be happy. There are a lot of people who do not like fish that have a lot of babies.

                              max

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