Hands Off Texas Rally

[stevenallenbarnard]

You're awesome Traci, and the one time I met Charles in person he was awesome too.

[imagirlgeek]

Accepted.

[stevenallenbarnard]

I'm not getting in the middle of this, but I feel I need to respond to a couple of things...



Just for the record, I would never make HFB a pay site. Ever. I have no problem with you not donating to HFB. It's completely voluntary and no one is ever pressured to do so. As for HFB not making the world a better place, well, I have to say that HFB makes MY world a better place. I would hope other's feel the same as I do. And fortunately, we have several boxers, new and old, who have contributed to the cost of keeping HFB running. I have to believe they feel that HFB benefits their world in some way other than just being a time-suck, or they wouldn't have donated anything toward the cost of running the site.



No one should be posting any personal information on this site, especially in the way of a tax return.

I misspoke and I apologize. It was never my intention to imply anything like that.

[imagirlgeek]

I'm not getting in the middle of this, but I feel I need to respond to a couple of things...

Second, I don't pay to use ANY website. The day Traci is forced to make HFB a pay only site is the day you will see MANY of it's members leave. HFB is not a charity. Donating Money to HFB in no way betters the world in any way. And if HFB shut down tomorrow, all it would do is free up maybe an hour or so of extra time during the course of my day.

Just for the record, I would never make HFB a pay site. Ever. I have no problem with you not donating to HFB. It's completely voluntary and no one is ever pressured to do so. As for HFB not making the world a better place, well, I have to say that HFB makes MY world a better place. I would hope other's feel the same as I do. And fortunately, we have several boxers, new and old, who have contributed to the cost of keeping HFB running. I have to believe they feel that HFB benefits their world in some way other than just being a time-suck, or they wouldn't have donated anything toward the cost of running the site.

Now I would be willing to scan a copy of my tax return and post it here for everyone to see if you are willing to do the same. If not then you should leave the assumptions about however much I make and how much I pay in taxes out of the equation.

No one should be posting any personal information on this site, especially in the way of a tax return.

[stevenallenbarnard]

I think this is an example of a "feeling" post vs a fact-based post. We don't want to believe people are doing wrong, so...


Mark

You're correct Mark. The fact of the matter is that there is no real data to support either claim. I based my claim on the number of people who i have personally known throughout my adult life who were forced to used government services at one time or another.

[stevenallenbarnard]

Okay, well first you conveniently ignored the first sentence in my post "I may be wrong but you don't strike me as the type of Liberal that is on the contributing side of Liberalism, working hard and freely giving your wealth to provide for others". Instead you responded in a defensive manner which leads me to further believe my initial assessment.

Second, you claim "I also donate money regularly to candidates I believe in, as well as donate both my time and money to various charities" yet you are the only person in this debate who does not have "HFB Donor" next to your name which tells me you also do not practice what you preach. Unless of course you don't feel HFB is providing a valued service in which you participate. See Darbex, Jeebus and myself and you will see that we DO contribute willingly without Girlgeek making it required. Just a simple example of HFB being a microcosm of our society as a whole and the difference between Liberals and Conservatives.

Third, you are attempting to make an argument for redistribution of wealth with the following statement "The simple fact of the matter is that I believe everyone in this country should be paying more in taxes" while I would be willing to wager that your annual Tax contribution is little if anything at all. It is very easy to make such statements when you contribute very little to the system but when you are paying more than an average US Salary into the system every year and you see others "On the take", your positions rapidly change.

So, you see, you seem very willing to make an incomplete and inconsistent argument to support your position but when the facts are revealed, your arguments don't pass the "Light of day test" IMHO.

So of the many types of Liberals ranging from the "Wealthy Elite Contributors" to the "Hands out, want something for nothing" Liberals, you paint a picture of yourself being more closely associated with the latter.

So my only frustration is that your positions seem (more often than not) inconstant and irrational given the facts.

Okay, first of all you were wrong. So that's been established. I responded in kind to what you said.

Second, I don't pay to use ANY website. The day Traci is forced to make HFB a pay only site is the day you will see MANY of it's members leave. HFB is not a charity. Donating Money to HFB in no way betters the world in any way. And if HFB shut down tomorrow, all it would do is free up maybe an hour or so of extra time during the course of my day. And as for HFB being a "microcosm of our society as a whole and the difference between Liberals and Conservatives." Just proves how narrow your view of the world is.

Third, what you call "redistribution of wealth" I call governments doing what they are supposed to do. Everyone should pay more in taxes. Taxes pay for roads, schools and everything else that makes this country great. Taxes also pay for the two wars that we are in right now. So the simple fact of the matter is that I pay the amount of taxes that I am supposed. Now I would be willing to scan a copy of my tax return and post it here for everyone to see if you are willing to do the same. If not then you should leave the assumptions about however much I make and how much I pay in taxes out of the equation.

So you see, the only reason my arguments seem "incomplete and irrational" to you is because they don't line up with yours.

[wesleydnunder]

Thank you Jeebus, you are right. There is abuse of the system and there should be more over sight. But that doesn't mean that I think most of the people who use these programs are abusing them. I think the percentage of people who abuse them is probably smaller than we think.

I think this is rhetoric and poor rhetoric at that. What is the actual percentage of abuse? What do we "think" it is? "probably" smaller?..based on what factual info?

But for Charles to say, "The impression you have given thus far is that of one who is more of a Liberal because you want to be on the receiving end of redistribution of wealth." Well, that was just a personal attack because he really didn't have anything else to come back with. And it's okay, we all get frustrated sometimes and throw our toys down and stomp away. Although if he has some valid reason why he believes that, I would love to hear it.

I think this is an example of a "feeling" post vs a fact-based post. We don't want to believe people are doing wrong, so...


Mark

[ImaGuyGeek]

Thank you Jeebus, you are right. There is abuse of the system and there should be more over sight. But that doesn't mean that I think most of the people who use these programs are abusing them. I think the percentage of people who abuse them is probably smaller than we think.

But for Charles to say, "The impression you have given thus far is that of one who is more of a Liberal because you want to be on the receiving end of redistribution of wealth." Well, that was just a personal attack because he really didn't have anything else to come back with. And it's okay, we all get frustrated sometimes and throw our toys down and stomp away. Although is he has some valid reason why he believes that, I would love to hear it.

Okay, well first you conveniently ignored the first sentence in my post "I may be wrong but you don't strike me as the type of Liberal that is on the contributing side of Liberalism, working hard and freely giving your wealth to provide for others". Instead you responded in a defensive manner which leads me to further believe my initial assessment.

Second, you claim "I also donate money regularly to candidates I believe in, as well as donate both my time and money to various charities" yet you are the only person in this debate who does not have "HFB Donor" next to your name which tells me you also do not practice what you preach. Unless of course you don't feel HFB is providing a valued service in which you participate. See Darbex, Jeebus and myself and you will see that we DO contribute willingly without Girlgeek making it required. Just a simple example of HFB being a microcosm of our society as a whole and the difference between Liberals and Conservatives.

Third, you are attempting to make an argument for redistribution of wealth with the following statement "The simple fact of the matter is that I believe everyone in this country should be paying more in taxes" while I would be willing to wager that your annual Tax contribution is little if anything at all. It is very easy to make such statements when you contribute very little to the system but when you are paying more than an average US Salary into the system every year and you see others "On the take", your positions rapidly change.

So, you see, you seem very willing to make an incomplete and inconsistent argument to support your position but when the facts are revealed, your arguments don't pass the "Light of day test" IMHO.

So of the many types of Liberals ranging from the "Wealthy Elite Contributors" to the "Hands out, want something for nothing" Liberals, you paint a picture of yourself being more closely associated with the latter.

So my only frustration is that your positions seem (more often than not) inconstant and irrational given the facts.

[stevenallenbarnard]

Thank you Jeebus, you are right. There is abuse of the system and there should be more over sight. But that doesn't mean that I think most of the people who use these programs are abusing them. I think the percentage of people who abuse them is probably smaller than we think.

But for Charles to say, "The impression you have given thus far is that of one who is more of a Liberal because you want to be on the receiving end of redistribution of wealth." Well, that was just a personal attack because he really didn't have anything else to come back with. And it's okay, we all get frustrated sometimes and throw our toys down and stomp away. Although if he has some valid reason why he believes that, I would love to hear it.

[jeebus]

And while I may not need to use the various social servicies that are available in this country and state, I can remember back to when I was 4 years old and my father walked out on my mother and my self and I remember how we would have starved and been homeless had those programs not been there while she got back on her feet. I remember that and I can have compassion for those that are forced to use them now.

This is where the breakdown for me is. You needed it, much the same way members of my own family reluctantly need the help right now as well. However, your mom found a way to gain financial independence - and didn't abuse it. That's where the disconnect is. More Americans are getting "compassion fatigue" for social programs because of the rampant abuse of said programs.

Sure there are people who really need the help, but why is there not more oversight to make sure they get the help they need, and no more. Giving too much help has created a new class in this society of those who CHOOSE not to work, because the Government will pay for their lifestyle. I don't accept that.

Sorry Charles, I know this is off topic.

[jeebus]

I appreciate the invite, but I think I'll just donate money to Obama and other local democrats instead.

Why give to Democrats? Its like giving twice.








....because you've already given to them on your tax return!

[stevenallenbarnard]

Now THAT is funny

I may be wrong but you don't strike me as the type of Liberal that is on the contributing side of Liberalism, working hard and freely giving your wealth to provide for others. The impression you have given thus far is that of one who is more of a Liberal because you want to be on the receiving end of redistribution of wealth.

Ahhhh, and what gives you that idea? The fact that I work hard to support my family. Maybe the reason you see me like that is because that's how you perceive all those that you label as "liberals." I would really like to know why you assume that I "want to be on the receiving end of redistribution of wealth." The simple fact of the matter is that I believe everyone in this country should be paying more in taxes. I also donate money regularly to candidates I believe in, as well as donate both my time and money to various charities. And while I may not need to use the various social servicies that are available in this country and state, I can remember back to when I was 4 years old and my father walked out on my mother and my self and I remember how we would have starved and been homeless had those programs not been there while she got back on her feet. I remember that and I can have compassion for those that are forced to use them now. So there, now you don't have to have the wrong impression any more. It's okay though.

[ImaGuyGeek]

I appreciate the invite, but I think I'll just donate money to Obama and other local democrats instead.

Now THAT is funny

I may be wrong but you don't strike me as the type of Liberal that is on the contributing side of Liberalism, working hard and freely giving your wealth to provide for others. The impression you have given thus far is that of one who is more of a Liberal because you want to be on the receiving end of redistribution of wealth.

[stevenallenbarnard]

http://www.greatdreams.com/political...auguration.htm

So was this hilarious to you as well?

The right to protest is protected under the constitution. Imaguygeek and the other hells angels can protest all day long for all I care, it doesn't mean I have to believe in their cause or even take them seriously.

[stevenallenbarnard]

I got this invitation today from the chapter Pres of my Motorcycle Club, The Sons of Liberty. http://texassonsoflibertyriders.ning.com/

We'll be meeting at Republic Harley Davidson for the ride to Austin. Maybe you would like to come and explain to this group of Veterans, Parents and Grandparents exactly what it is you find so funny about believing in and wanting to preserve the Constitution and the principals this country was founded on.

I appreciate the invite, but I think I'll just donate money to Obama and other local democrats instead.