Keeping Church and State Seperate...

[CichlidFan]

I disagree, I don't mind a little gospel preached at me.....anywhere anytime, I for one, dont' believe we hear enough of it anymore, but that's just me.....

Now if all he did was quote the bible and talk of parabels, yeah that would get old, but in todays society were sex and violence is the norm on TV and in just about any form of illustration avaialbe, I believe a little love goes a long way.....

BTW....still love you karens, and respects you too....

CF

[thekarens]

Sin is sin no matter how you look at it. To be forgiven of it, you must repent, ask for forgiveness, and forgive even yourself. Does not matter if this is sexual imorality (any sex with with anyone other than your spouse, this include yourself), murder, theft, cursing & swearing, false witness, and all the other 10. Jesus sad his one great commandment is that you love the LORD your God, and love your neighbor as yourself. The hardest thing in life is humility to be able to do so. All you can do is pray, and hope one day will come where you can find it to ask and forgive yourself.

Some people will never do so, and being so will be putting themselves at risk. Jesus said in his fable of the lost sheep, that he loves just as much or more the lost sheep that strayed from the flock and then came back, as those that always stayed in the flock.

No one on this Earth can be the judge only he will. Any sin in your life puts that judgement at risk. Forever is a long time, but "by the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are, and to dust you will return." The dead have no conscious...

God loves all that he has created, it is up to us to love or reject him.

Geoff, I both like and respect you and I even understand where you are coming from, but preaching on the boards and quoting scripture will drive people away. It's not going to change anyone's mind. If you want to change people you live what you preach. That's what will draw people to God. If they want to know about scripture they will ask.

[CichlidFan]

I don't believe any apologies are necessary sir....

CF

[geoff_tropheus]

sorry for all the rambling on and off topic stuff, but this is the lounge and that is rather custom in these threads.

[geoff_tropheus]

Sin is sin no matter how you look at it. To be forgiven of it, you must repent, ask for forgiveness, and forgive even yourself. Does not matter if this is sexual imorality (any sex with with anyone other than your spouse, this include yourself), murder, theft, cursing & swearing, false witness, and all the other 10. Jesus sad his one great commandment is that you love the LORD your God, and love your neighbor as yourself. The hardest thing in life is humility to be able to do so. All you can do is pray, and hope one day will come where you can find it to ask and forgive yourself.

Some people will never do so, and being so will be putting themselves at risk. Jesus said in his fable of the lost sheep, that he loves just as much or more the lost sheep that strayed from the flock and then came back, as those that always stayed in the flock.

No one on this Earth can be the judge only he will. Any sin in your life puts that judgement at risk. Forever is a long time, but "by the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are, and to dust you will return." The dead have no conscious...

God loves all that he has created, it is up to us to love or reject him.

[thekarens]

And for all of you out there that would like to judge gays how many of you had sex before you were married or lived with your girlfriend/boyfriend before you were married? How many of you have been divorced? All of those things are sin in the Bible and yet society has made it acceptable to some people want to make it acceptable for Christians, but still exclude gays.

If Christians truly followed the Bible they would let gays into their churches without trying to change them. If they/we need changing God is perfectly capable of doing it without anyone else's help.

[Mzungu]

But it is YOUR bible. Its not mine. I dont recognize it as truth. There are several bibles by the way. The Jews have the Torah, the Hindu have the Arya Sathya Vedam and Satanists have The Satanic Bible. None of those are MY bible either.

The reason I dont move, is because this is where I live. While I will openly say that this country disgusts me, it is a million times better than most others.

I didn't say anything about recognizing it as truth. I just said that it's a book, which I why I grouped it with other well-known books. The particular Bible you're speaking of when you say "your bible" is the Christian Bible, Old and New Testament, correct? I know almost every religion has a "Bible." I'm just saying that it's a representative of a certain attitude/opinion in your posts that detracts from some of the things that you're saying because by using that one little word, you're almost being...antagonistic, and when a post is antagonistic at first, it's hard to take the intelligent things said as seriously as intended.

But thanks for answering my question about living here - that's kind of what I thought, but was sincerely just wondering if those who tend to complain a lot (me included!) would rather live somewhere else. I don't think I would.

I feel like I'm being attacked in a very passive aggressive way from the Christians on this site. I never once said that you guys were wrong or that you were crazy for following your religion. Every time I open my mouth about how I feel on the subject, you guys are trying to justify your beliefs. That right there shows me that you dont fully understand or believe in your bible either.

I don't think you're being attacked. I just think that it's a subject about which people feel VERY strongly, and therefore feel the need to defend their point of view, just as you do. I won't go into that, though, because this thread's about Church and State, and I've already gone waaay off topic!

[thekarens]

Whether the words separation of church and state are written, the spirit of those words are there and it should be followed. I grew up in a church that believed Catholics were going to hell because they are idol worshippers. You can't and shouldn't mix church and state because who is going to decide what church and what beliefs?

[thekarens]

There's a time in my life when I would have been offended by the "how can you be gay and Christian" comment, but I've long since gotten past that. You can argue that the Bible says you can't be gay all day long and I will still disagree. People have translated the Bible to say whatever they want. But, if you're truly interested in how I could be both gay and Christian read this http://www.godmademegay.com/ and for the record, it was written by a white, straight Baptist minister.

Oh and for the record, I'm not sorry and I don't believe God expects me to be sorry for who I am. You and whoever can argue all day long and I KNOW that God is fine with me just as is. My pastor growing up had a saying that I love. He said, "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." I've experienced God as a gay person and I've experienced his love and acceptance of who I am and no one can take that away from me.

[FrontosaurusRex]

I was wondering where you were Nick. I used to be very close minded about homosexuality in high school. I played baseball and was mildly influenced by the guys on the team and homosexuality was unacceptable. Once i graduated and started seeing the world for what it is, I realized that my views on people and life were wrong. I even wrote a paper arguing that being gay was a choice for people. Later on down the road, I met gay people at work and in bars and realized that alot of gay people had no say in the matter. They were literally born that way. Thats not to say that some people dont choose, because i'm sure there are people that wake up one day and think, "i wonder what thats like" and love it.
Anyway, Randall said that you cant truly be sorry for being gay because you live as a homosexual ever single day of your life. If thats true, do you (Randall) honestly feel sorry every time you sleep with your girlfriend out of wedlock? I'm not judging you because I had a child and I'm not technically married. I'm also not picking on you Randall but you were the only one bold enough to ask that question.
For what its worth Nick, from my knowledge of the Christian bible, you wont be going to hell because you're gay. From the little bit that I know of you, you seem like a kind person who cares about people and loves animals. I've never seen you be mean to anybody or judge anybody openly. I've never heard a negative word out of your mouth. I dont see you openly breaking the law or intentionally trying to hurt others. Thats a whole lot more than what I can say for most of the people on this thread claiming to be so "religious".

[Nickintex]

a gay person cant be truely sorry for it if they do it everyday of their lives. I know this is a touchy subject, but as a casual question I just never brought it up for fear of losing some friends of mine.

I am not sorry for accepting myself for who I am.

[Nickintex]

Not a rude question...I promise. But how to Gays still consider themselves Christian??? Im not saying that they are wrong or right...thats not my decision. But when I read the Bible it is Leviticus 18:22, which reads: "You shall not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, it is an abomination". Clearly the words of the Bible are not those of acceptance. I personally am not one to judge somebody on their CHOICE, I have many gay friends, but I have just never asked how some still pronounce themselves a Christian.

For the record, I never CHOSE to be gay, it just is. I was never like I was hetero first, then wondered what it would be like to be homo. Growing up, I knew what I was attracted to, but everyone said it was wrong. In high school it was a heavily guarded secret of mine until I nearly took my own life over it. Why did I slash my wrists at 18 and try to od on my mom's sleeping pills? I did not want to be that "fag" that everyone hated and that was condemned to a life of misery. I was taught how wrong it was by the media and Catholic Church to have thoughts I had no control over. I sought counseling. At the time, I thought a professional could help me turn straight. My counselor, helped me realize that self loathing and destruction was not the way. I learned that self acceptance was healthier mentally, and if my friends could not accept me for who I am, then are they really my friends in the first place?
On a separate note, I consider myself Agnostic, and I am fine with it. I have always had an interest in life sciences, especially with the fossil records. My CDD classes (the courses you have to take in Catholic Church for all the sacraments) kept telling me NOT to believe it, and that there were no such things as dinosaurs, mammoths and cave people, etc, but I could not be persuaded as such. Also, having gone to a high school with a mostly Jewish population exposed me to other ideologies, so for me as an individual, I cannot view one single religion as the "right" one for me. What I did observe, was religion, which is supposed to be a set of rules to help you be a loving caring individual, being used as an excuse to hate and judge others. In sum, I am an Agnostic, but I am not an Atheist. I am fine with that.

[ImaGuyGeek]

If there is no "Separation of church and state" there certainly should be because "my" church and "your" church might not be the same.

There is no "If". There is NO separation of Church and State in the US Constitution, Bill of Rights or Declaration of Independence. Please feel free to read and search for yourself.


US Constitution

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

Bill Of Rights

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_bor.html

US Declaration of Independence

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/

The concept of the "Separation of Church and State" was derived from personal letters between Jefferson and the Danbury Baptists.

And though I agree that Jefferson did some tremendous things he was still a slave owner.

Yes, this is a completely factual statement. He did in fact own slaves before he freed them.

By today's standards Benjamin Franklin (another of our Founding Fathers) was sold into slavery at the age of 12 when he was forced to take an apprenticeship at a print shop. Back then an apprenticeship was being forced to work for free for an agreed upon period of time with the threat of conviction for breaking a contract between 2 other parties if the apprenticeship is not completed.

The point is this. As society changes, so do the rules of what is legally and socially acceptable. It seems unreasonable to me to discount all the great things our Founding Fathers did by judging them by todays standards.

[myjohnson]

I pray in public school.

[sunrise]

FrontosaurusRex,

Have you visited a third world country before?

sunrise