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View Full Version : Seperate Flowerhorn section...



Armadillo_Del_Rio
02-19-2009, 04:35 PM
I do not agree flowerhorns should be considered south/central american cichlids as they are man made. Though they are breed from those areas, its just misleading to some.

jeebus
02-19-2009, 04:39 PM
I wouldn't mind a Flowerhorn section, but I don't know how much traffic it would get..

Kiovo
02-19-2009, 07:13 PM
if you build it, they will come


I meant, if Traci built it they will come

Armadillo_Del_Rio
02-19-2009, 08:01 PM
i prefer natural fish

jisatsuguy
02-19-2009, 08:14 PM
how bout a hybrid section??? yeah some like natural fish, its kinda like choosing a faith... this summer i hope to create some hybrids...

marauder_77868
02-19-2009, 09:53 PM
+1 to Armadillo

Ok...let me start off by saying that I in no way want people to think the comments I'm about to make are disparaging people who keep Flowerhorns (hybrids). I would rather they be taken in the manner which I intend, which is to further education and conservation.

There are so many species, true species, of beautiful fish available, especially cichlids. The VAST majority of Flowerhorns come from the far east. More specifically, they come from the same places that offer the dyed, tattooed, surgically altered, and otherwise mutilated fish that we, as a community, seem to despise. So in a way, when you purchase a Flowerhorn, you're supporting those who would mutiliate other fish in the name of the almighty dollar. Furthermore, their practices of culling have created an incredible problem in Malaysia, for example, where the culls have found their way into the waterways and are now decimating species of native fish. Some would argue that this isn't happening, but the reports are out there.

Setting all that aside for a moment, let's look at it from the side of conservation. Conservation of threatened fishes takes work. It takes money. But key to both of these, it takes people. People who line breed fish such as angels, discus, or really anything else that is more than one generation removed from the wild know that eventually you have to breed back to wild or near-wild fish to maintain vigor. So these people have a vested interest in maintaining wild caught fish and their habitats. Or, put in other terms, the people who provide these fishes have an interest. Such is not the case with the Flowerhorn and other hybrids. They are always trying to make something new. Hybrids are crossed with other hybrids. Very rarely are any true species used. Thus, the true species becomes somewhat obsolete. When there is no demand, there is no incentive to cause the suppliers to protect their stock.

The problem with all this is that if someone goes into a shop and sees these fish, with no knowledge of their origins, they make a decision which I feel is regrettable. They buy the hybrid. As that bulids, the store owner orders more hybrids and the problem becomes worse and worse. The natural species become less and less available. As an example let me ask a question. How hard is it to find a pure trimaculatus now?

There are so many species available to us. Why would we need to create something unnatural? We have created so many nice strains through line breeding...a process that achieves some of the same goals as hybridization without mixing species. Some may look at this as an evil as well, but line breeding has been around since at least the 9th century...so I don't think we're going to change too much on that front.

I don't want to necessarily discourage anyone from keeping anything (within reason). What I do want to do is encourage people to fully consider the ramifications of their choices. The next time you have an empty tank, consider devoting some space to maintaining something threatened in the wild or endangered. There are programs here within the state (HCCC) and nationally with the ACA that can get you started or you can contact me if you'd like and I'll get you connected with the right people to make it happen....at very little cost, I might add.

In summary again, if I may reiterate, I'm not trying to disparage anyone here, or anywhere else for that matter. I just would like to see the hobby take a different route than it's taking. The last thing that I want to see is Flowerhorns in our waterways and the state coming down our our whole industry as recourse. I'll step off of my soapbox now...thanks for taking the time to read this.

--Charles

Nickintex
02-19-2009, 10:26 PM
Having said all that, how about a glow fish section, or a section for genetically altered fish?:cool:

marauder_77868
02-19-2009, 11:34 PM
I know I'm a bit off topic maybe on my last post and perhaps I should start a new thread

Nickintex
02-19-2009, 11:39 PM
I know I'm a bit off topic maybe on my last post and perhaps I should start a new thread
I got you to admit something????
:emt_eyecrazy:

jeebus
02-20-2009, 07:52 AM
Charles... does this mean you won't be getting in any flowerhorns anytime soon? :eusa_whistle:


There are so many species, true species, of beautiful fish available, especially cichlids. The VAST majority of Flowerhorns come from the far east. More specifically, they come from the same places that offer the dyed, tattooed, surgically altered, and otherwise mutilated fish that we, as a community, seem to despise. So in a way, when you purchase a Flowerhorn, you're supporting those who would mutiliate other fish in the name of the almighty dollar.

I would add, every time you buy a puppy from the pet-store you're probably supporting a puppy-mill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0KucYppXO0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km1_h7eGiKU

I think I'd rather buy all the tattooed fish in the world than buy just one pet-store puppy and possibly help keep a puppy-mill open. BTW, next time you think the Amish are innocent, sweet, simple country people, remember that they run most of the puppy mils in the nation, treat ALL the dogs worse than livestock, and kill them the second they are no longer profitable.

eklikewhoa
02-20-2009, 08:02 AM
Puppies, Tattooed fish, hybrids, mutalated.... all one in the same?

eklikewhoa
02-20-2009, 08:03 AM
Although I do agree on a lot of the points made by Charles it's to each their own.

fishboyt
02-20-2009, 08:12 AM
Didn't Armadillo_Del_Rio just want to know if anyone wanted a flowerhorn section? I think we are getting off topic.

jeebus
02-20-2009, 08:25 AM
Puppies, Tattooed fish, hybrids, mutalated.... all one in the same?

(In the United States) dogs are not considered edible or a livestock. Fish can be classified as either or both.

That's the ultimate difference I see.

marauder_77868
02-20-2009, 08:25 AM
I would add, every time you buy a puppy from the pet-store you're probably supporting a puppy-mill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0KucYppXO0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0KucYppXO0)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km1_h7eGiKU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km1_h7eGiKU)

I think I'd rather buy all the tattooed fish in the world than buy just one pet-store puppy and possibly help keep a puppy-mill open. BTW, next time you think the Amish are innocent, sweet, simple country people, remember that they run most of the puppy mils in the nation, treat ALL the dogs worse than livestock, and kill them the second they are no longer profitable.

I agree with most of this .But I have to ask...why bring it up? Something I've learned over the years is that you can't justify something with what you think someone else is doing wrong. Again, I wasn't trying to offend anyone...just educate. Educating on puppy mills is another matter. And he's right...we're getting off topic. I vote NO on the Flowerhorn section.

jeebus
02-20-2009, 08:29 AM
I brought it up to show the contrast and to bring a constant to the hybrid/mutilated fish debate. I think we're picking our poison when we will choose to buy or not buy a hybrid fish that overseas is being release into the local rivers & estuaries, but locally we might not recycle the water we used from our water changes of our kept natural fish.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I just think we're picking our poison.

Kiovo
02-20-2009, 08:38 AM
I vote YES. There is an interest in it, and there are several box members who keep flowerhorns and other hybrids. Whether other people think its ethical or not, well, like EK said, to each their own.

eklikewhoa
02-20-2009, 08:42 AM
(In the United States) dogs are not considered edible or a livestock. Fish can be classified as either or both.

That's the ultimate difference I see.

So it's ok to mill out fish to eat but not ok to mill out pups for all the little children who need a friend?

Two different things with different reasons but in the end is it not the same thing? Try to keep things pure?

you think out of all the flowerhorn fry produced every single one is kept alive? Now for those out there please raise your hand if you want to buy an ugly flowerhorn.

I haven't read not one post from anyone here saying how they picked a flowerhorn due to it's lack of "red", "kok", "pearls" or "characters".

eklikewhoa
02-20-2009, 08:44 AM
hope you don't get all wound up again jeebus... to clearly point out my intentions...

I AM JUST PICKING ON YOU CAUSE YOU SEEM TO HAVE A VALID ARGUMENT. I HONESTLY CAN CARE LESS CAUSE I TOO FIND CERTAIN NICE LOOKING FLOWERHORNS PRETTY TO LOOK AT.

jeebus
02-20-2009, 09:16 AM
So it's ok to mill out fish to eat but not ok to mill out pups for all the little children who need a friend?

Well, we're delving deep into a nasty black-hole. If we're going to talk about milling animals for food, then we could easily compare fish to cattle or fowl, and how in-humane they are handled. Just read Fast Food Nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Food_Nation) to find out first hand how bad it really is.

I'm ultimately neutral on this whole thing and am just debating it for the sake of conversation. My way of showing disapproval of tattooed/mutilated fish is to just not buy them. Hybrid fish I have no issue with. I probably am a hypocrite for feeling that way though.

If I start to lose sleep over the issue, I'll re-address it.

marauder_77868
02-20-2009, 09:33 AM
I put my original comments into a new thread so that this one can stay on topic and as it seemed as though some debate was occurring. Here's the link:

http://www.houstonfishbox.com/vforums/showthread.php?p=366028#post366028

jeebus
02-20-2009, 09:43 AM
To stay on topic, "yes", I would like to see a Flowerhorn section.

eklikewhoa
02-20-2009, 09:52 AM
Sub sub-forum perhaps like the Discus section or instead of just Flowerhorns maybe Hybrid section to keep from having each individual fish having it's own section.

Armadillo_Del_Rio
02-20-2009, 10:29 AM
Yes have a subforum, but maybe not under SA/CA section...

eklikewhoa
02-20-2009, 10:31 AM
What would it be under then?

jeebus
02-20-2009, 10:52 AM
I think if they don't get their own section, then a sub-forum under SA cichlids would be more than appropriate as thats what fish were primarily used to make the flowerhorn. The other option is to start an Asian fish section I guess.

jisatsuguy
02-22-2009, 10:31 AM
i think cs ca outta get a hybrid section... seems to work for monsterfishkeepers.com