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Somefishguy
02-14-2009, 12:16 AM
Can anyone please explain or direct me to a link tht explains a bit about betta gentics as far as breeding goes. Couple example questions I am looking to get explained.

If you cross an Regular Male x CT Female (vic versa) what will offspring be (ie is regular dominat so all offspring be regular hetero and a cross between the offspring will get 1/4 CT?)

As well as color wise Solid Red Male x Solid Blue Female
or
Solid Red Male x Multicolored Female

Basically what is dominate is it a male versus a female type relationship.

Thanks

PhishPhreek
02-14-2009, 01:27 AM
Here are my notes after many web searches. It's by no means complete but its a good start. Most wild wish display the dominant genotype. so if the wild bettas are not double tail, crowntail its a pretty good bet that they are recessive traits. However, veil tails are domint - go figure ?

Genotype – genes that are present
Phenotype – what you see
Allele – one half of a pair of genes
Homozygous – two allele that are the same
Heterozygous – two allele that are different
Capital letter = dominant
Little letter = recessive
Punnett Square
F1 – first generation
F2 – second generation

COLORS The study of betta genetics indicates that there are four main colors layers
Colors can be reduced, absent, altered, extended, patterned
(layers - blue / black / red / colorless)

BLUE - co-dominant, green controls iridocyte color
BlBl:green/turquoise
Blbl: royal blue
blbl: steel
Si spread irrodocyte - dominant
Op opaque (creamy deposit) - partially dominant

BLACK
m melano (black) recessive
B bright or blonde – dominant

RED
Er extended red - partially dominant
L: red loss( causes red to fade away) - dominant
nr1 non-red (yellow) – recessive
nr2 non-red (orange) - recessive

CLEAR - (cellophane) This is the innermost layer. This is nearly always covered by other layers and is very pale with no observable color. This is not to be confused with the Non-Red yellows.

PATTERNS
c cambodian - recessive
vf variagated fins (butterfly) - recessive
mb marble (variable color) - recessive
? speckled
? grizzled
? Piebald
? Black Lace Produces fertile black females but is less dense than the melanos.
? Pineapple
? Mustard gas

FINNAGE
ST shortfin, (single tail),
VT Veil tail - dominant
dt double-tail - recessive,
?? delta-tale (double rays) ???
??? super delta (double-double rays)
hm half moon - multiple factor inheritance
ct protuding fins rays (combtail / Crowntail) recessive

Somefishguy
02-14-2009, 01:26 PM
Ok thanks, As I expected A Homo VT x Homo CT will give all VT pheno types. Cross of the offspring will give 1/4 CT


But I wouldnt be surprised to see if the VT they sell in stores are hetero. I might have to try it out and see if I am right (I picked a very pretty red VT male with great fin and a black fringe on the tail, might have to see if i can find a female CT and breed em).

PhishPhreek
02-14-2009, 04:13 PM
just MHO but after american breeders have spentgenerations cleaning up colors. (getting the red wash out of Blue Bettas) I would not breed red and blue bettas together unless it was last resort. sort of like one step forward and two back. Did I forget to tell you that I have a short body Blue male for you :D
http://www.tcbettas.com/misc/shortblue.jpg

Somefishguy
02-14-2009, 05:22 PM
Thats a nice looking guy you have there.

I wasnt saying I would be crossing red and blue (and after your little bit of info I definatly will not do that), was just using it as an example to see what colors were dominate.

If I do go ahead and try to crosss something it will probbaly be a light bodied CT female with the red veil tail i picked up. Its more just out of pure curiosity and getting to see genetics unfold in front of me (gentics has aways been my favorite course I took at uni).


Either way I want to get some research done on it before I go ahead and decide what female i want to get and if I will use the veil tail male I have.

fishboyt
02-14-2009, 05:33 PM
I spawned a blue and red betta thinking their fry would look nice. :cry:

Somefishguy
02-14-2009, 05:38 PM
I dont think its really a matter of them coming out looking nice, Im sure they will look nice... I think its more a matter of breedings spending long time to get a solid blue betta. In the end, If you are happy with what you produce then fine, else you can always start again.

PhishPhreek
02-14-2009, 06:24 PM
The IBC has 50 catagories for bettas in a show.
Two of them are for multi-colored bettas (male or Female)
A lot of breeders like multi-colored bettas.
I'm just not one of them. I like clean colors.
Of Course I also like Butterflys and Bi-Colors (cambodian)

fishboyt
02-14-2009, 10:05 PM
I dont think its really a matter of them coming out looking nice, Im sure they will look nice... I think its more a matter of breedings spending long time to get a solid blue betta. In the end, If you are happy with what you produce then fine, else you can always start again.


OK. I was worried they would look ugly.

Somefishguy
02-14-2009, 10:13 PM
LOL no I think you will end up with blue with hints of red or red with hints of blue

I think they will look fine. Just a metter of personal perefernce

fishboyt
02-15-2009, 07:39 AM
LOL no I think you will end up with blue with hints of red or red with hints of blue

I think they will look fine. Just a metter of personal perefernce



Cool, Thanks!

PhishPhreek
02-15-2009, 09:44 AM
If one of your parents is royal blue (BL bl, ?? ??) you don't know what color the red layer is because it is covered by the blue top layer.
The other parent is Extended Red with no blue layer (-- --, Er Er)
half of the fry will be (Bl--,Er??) and half will be (bl--Er??).
Blue is the top layer, so the (Bl--,Er??) will appear green/turquoise.
And the (bl--,Er??) fry will appear steel (dark blue)
They will appear turquoise or steel but with red on the layer underneath.
If there are holes in the blue pattern, you will be able to see the red.
If the Blue parent has yellow or orange on the red layer, you might see that through the blue holes.

When you breed your F1 generation fry
If you choose two Turquoise you will get 75% Turquoise and 25% red
If you breed two steel, you will get 75% steel and 25% red
and if you breed a steel to a turquoise, you will get 25% steel (bl bl), 25% turquoise(Bl Bl), 25% royal blue (Bl bl) and 25% red (-- --) no blue showing

If the original blue parent has orange or yellow in his red layer, you may possably get some orange or yellow fry (6 out of 100).

PhishPhreek
02-15-2009, 09:52 AM
side note
the Blue Betta breeders have worked for years to get rid of holes in the blue pattern so no red will show through.

The Red Betta breeders have worked on a solid red patern but because they have no blue showing, they do not know if there are holes in the blue layer (there normally are) so when you cross the red and the blue you reintroduce holes in the fry's blue layer and you get red showing through - called red wash if there is a little, called multi-color if there is a lot.

If you want multi-color bettas this is OK, but If you want solid Blue bettas this is not good. It will take many generations of breeding only the most blue of your fry before you get rid of all the holes.

fishboyt
02-15-2009, 10:14 AM
My male has blue marbled fins mixed with white and little red dots, along with a white body. The female has solid red fins and a tan body.

PhishPhreek
02-15-2009, 01:04 PM
Well your female would be a "Cambodian" officially classifieded as a light bodied bi-color (red fins and light cream colored body)
Your male would be clasified as a multicolor even though he is mostly blue.
If he didn't have the red patches he would be classified as a blue marble.
(Blue with non blue patches) Marbles will actually change their pattern as they age becomming less blue as the patches get larger.

fishboyt
02-15-2009, 02:25 PM
Well your female would be a "Cambodian" officially classifieded as a light bodied bi-color (red fins and light cream colored body)
Your male would be clasified as a multicolor even though he is mostly blue.
If he didn't have the red patches he would be classified as a blue marble.
(Blue with non blue patches) Marbles will actually change their pattern as they age becomming less blue as the patches get larger.



Actually, he has blue and white fins. Not red, white and blue fins. Sorry about that. I thought he had all of those colors. :oops: