Step by Step increasing pH safely

[imagirlgeek]

Hi,

I need to bring up the pH in a couple of the tanks (Troph tanks).  I have (and please don't make fun of me, all of this stuff came with a tank I bought from an individual) Seachem Tanganyika Buffer, Sodium Bicarbonate (pretty much just baking soda), and a little bottle of pH Up that I'd prefer not to use unless someone here can really convince me it's the best way to go.  The pH is not horribly low, but I read that Trophs like higher pH levels.  I can find out online or on the bottles how much to use per gallon of water, but what I'm worried about is how to do this slowly over time.  I don't want to risk shocking any of the fish.  Over the past year, I have fallen in love with these fish and have recently increased my collection.  They have great space, they are being fed correctly, temp is good, I'm doing weekly water changes to make sure everything stays clean....I just want to get this pH thing right without crapping it all up.   :) Suggestions please?

Thanks in advance!

[Zulaab]

Re: Step by Step increasing pH safely

First question would be what is your pH right now ?
Houston Tap water runs around 8.3 pH naturally, and Lake Tanganyika runs around 8.5.
What most people I have listen to do, is add Texas Holey Rock (Limestone honey comb rock) which raises the water to about 8.6 naturally.   You can also uses a couple of bags of Eco-Complete African Cichlid Substrate which will also raise the pH naturally to the desired levels.
When I build my Tropheus tank this is what I am going to use and I have been told with that alone the Tropheus will be in Heaven when it comes to pH and Hardness of the water.

Maybe some people who do have a little more experience can chime in here and make sure I am not steering the wrong direction with these recommendations.

[imagirlgeek]

Re: Step by Step increasing pH safely

I've got 1 tank at 8.0 and one at 7.6.  I've got 'some' holey rock in the tanks, but not much.  And I've got a sand substrate, so I'm not sure Eco-Complete would work with these tanks.  I'll try using more holey rock and see how that goes.  

Thanks!

[eklikewhoa]

Re: Step by Step increasing pH safely

If you can source out some crushed coral add it to a media bag and throw it in your filter/sump.

I used the Seachem Tang buffer and salts but only to get the other minerals that included but have since stopped...my tapwater comes out at 7.8 but the Trophs I have are in a tank with 140lbs of Eco-complete cichlid substrate and about 200+lbs of holey rock so the pH is at 8.0-8.2 and the hardness is about 18DKH.

The buffer works if you wanna use it but you will have to test it before jumping in....get some tank water and let it sit overnight....compare the pH/KH to the tank as it is and then add the buffer/salts....then compare again.

See how much of the buffer changes how much of the water and do the math from there to see how much you actually need for your tank to get it the way you want. Also....you will have to do your best to keep it stable which is the most important thing. Honestly I would probably just keep it in whatever comes out the tap.

[armthehomeless]

Re: Step by Step increasing pH safely

Although pH can be altered, I don't advise attempting to make major changes in the pH of your water. Over time it is very difficult to keep the pH stable, and as a result you may be faced with an even more dangerous situation - fluctuating pH. Changes in pH are stressful, if not lethal, to your fish. Furthermore, sudden changes in pH can damage the beneficial bacterial colonies that eliminate wastes in your aquarium.

To raise the pH, I would do lots of water changes over time (assuming you live in an area of Houston where the pH is 8+). After that, add baking soda and salt to increase the buffering capacity and the make the water harder. Although this is just me, I wouldn't do much to the one that is already at 8.

While holey rock will raise the pH over time, I wouldn't rely on it to do all of your work. How fast it will change the water chemistry is dependent upon the flow of the water over the rock and the surface area of the rock itself.  Putting aragonite into the filter would produce a larger effect than placing a holey rock "boulder" in the tank.

[geoff_tropheus]

Re: Step by Step increasing pH safely

Limestone Holey Rock will not raise your pH to anything noticealbe until about 100 years.

Only the fine sand, dust like particles will dissolve and help you in any amount that you will ever notice.

What you need to do is perform every 3 days a 30% waterchange.

Do this until your tank pH is equivalent to your TAP source.  Now, I am going to guess that your in the Houston Area and your tap is very likely 7.8

Once your tank is at 7.8 matching your tap water source you will need to start performing 30% weekly or 50% bi-weekly waterchanges on Tropheus tanks.  This is important for all Tanganyikan fish, and works really well for all fish in my opinion, but definately for tanganyikans, especially Tropheus.

At each waterchange, dose 1 teapson per 5 gallons.  Using Baking Soda.  This will bring your pH to about 8.2.  If you want higher than 8.2, you will need to use the Seachem Tang Buffer.  That is some really good stuff.

I believe the optimum Tropheus pH is 8.0 to 8.4, this will be the best for them in color, health, and breeding.

Being new to Tropheus, I would also suggest to you to look very closely at your filtration.  If your using canisters and HOB filters, then get 7-10 time turnover rate in your aquarium per hour.  If your using a wetdry, they only need about 4-5 turnover for sizing your pump.

Tropheus are the most exciting and most addicitng fish, you will ever keep.  Becareful....

Take care,

Geoff

[bethesdaboy]

Re: Step by Step increasing pH safely

Substrate (rock and gravel/sand) is a buffer, it will balance current water parameters and thats about it.
Over a couple decades it will do more.
If you want to raise your pH, do it chemically ahead of time as you would for any Tang tank.
It will take a while w/o chems and please be patient.
What Geoff is referring to is balance, you must know your water parameters "out of tap" this varies over time and city.
Also please note filter turnover is a myth and legend on several front.
What you are quoted out of box is a joke by most companies.
Eheim is one of two that I know that quotes real turnover via power/canister filters.
Others lie.

[imagirlgeek]

Re: Step by Step increasing pH safely

Thanks everyone.  I am now excited and absolutely terrified.    I admit, I got the Duboisi only because they were interesting looking, and then researched them after the fact.  We've not had any problems with them, knock on wood and they are all about 4-5 inches now.  

We feed Spirulina flakes and more recently have added Cichlid Excel for herbivores (soaked in a cup of their aquarium water until soft) <-- thanks to J-WH6, who we bought 3 Duboisi from.  (My husband laughs that we have very spoiled fish...I always say, 'not spoiled...high-maintenance' - LOL)

I am using a Rena XP3 canister filter on the Duboisi 75, and a Magnum 350 and a Emperor 280 on the Moorii 75.  I have a powerhead in each tank with 2 sponge attachments on each...to keep the sand from shredding the impellers.  And I also read that they like surface agitation, which I can get with the powerheads.  What I've found is that the only constant online about Trophs is that they will die in a second with almost no warning.  Everything else seems to be based on who wrote the article.

So, I came here to ask the questions because I trust that  you all know your stuff.  I will gladly take any guidance you offer.  I do love these fish and are extremely addicted to them, so I want to make sure they are cared for correctly.

Thanks so much!

[geoff_tropheus]

Re: Step by Step increasing pH safely

How long have you kept your Duboisi?

I have been keeping fish for over 25 years, and nothing but Tropheus for almost 10.

Tropheus do not die without warning as long as you taking good care of them.

Cichlid Excel and spirulina flakes are excellent foods for them.

There are other foods as well, I will glady share them with you.  The Excel only needs pre-soaked if you are feeding them pellets for the first couple weeks, to get them used to eating pellets.  Once you learn how much to feed them, you will not need to pre-soak it and "baby" them.

Tropheus are very tough fish, as long as you keep their water parameters up with a vigorous waterchange schedule and filtration.

How many Duboisi have you been keeping in the 75 gallon? Do you have any pictures of the Moorii, that you can share?  I can and others, can help to identify the collection point of them.

Take care,

Geoff

[imagirlgeek]

Re: Step by Step increasing pH safely

We've had the first 3 Duboisi for close to a year, and just added another 3 a couple of weeks ago.  So, 6 in the 75.  Surprisingly they didn't fight over territories and have been hanging out together...not at all what I expected.  And I pretty much have Obsessive Compulsive Behavior when it comes to tank maintenance.  I use tank water siphoned into a bucket to clean the filters, and do weekly water changes....anywhere from roughly 15% - 25%...but you think I should be doing 30% - 50% every other week?  Will do.  

I would love to know other foods to feed them.  I really like to offer variety to all my fish, but felt like I was kind of limited on the Trophs.  The other tanks get 'treats' of frozen brine shrimp and frozen Daphnia, but no treats for the Trophs.  What do you suggest?

I have a couple pics of some of the Moorii...I'll put them here.  But have gotten some new ones since and you know how it is...they just don't like to pose for pics!  Always darting around like they have ADD.    I also don't have a professional grade camera, so I'm doing my best with what I've got.  Hopefully they will be good enough.  As soon as I send this post, I'll try to get pics of the new Moorii and post them as well.

Thanks so much for all the help.  You have no idea how appreciated it is.

**removing pics to free up space**

[imagirlgeek]

Re: Step by Step increasing pH safely

Okay I should have at least one good pic of each.  Any IDs would be appreciated.

**removing pics to free up space**

[geoff_tropheus]

Re: Step by Step increasing pH safely

Couplethings you got...

1.  You have what looks like about 4 differnt Moorii in the same tank and 1 brichardi type.
2.  They are all small juvinile fish, so until you start getting them into the range of over 3.5" your not going to have any interbreeding.
3.  Please know, that a couple of those fish you have together could interbred and make hybrid Tropheus.

I do not like Hybrid Trophs, some people like them, but most people who know Tropheus will not like them either.  So, when they get to a breeding size, you need to take actions in my opinion to seperate them otherwise, be preapred to have possible hybrid fry to be produced, that you will need to figure out what to do with, keep yourself, sell as hybrid, or destroy them.

From your pictures this is what I think you have.

The black head, and tail section with the orange middle bands are called: Tropheus moorii "sp.black" - Bemba or sometimes called Pemba

The very last picture has a black fish with yellow bands and red patch in the dorsal is either a not yet developed Bemba variant or it is : Tropheus Moorii "sp.black" - Rutunga Red Saddle

The yellow fish with blue eye, brown stripes, yellow dorsal, and peachy cheek, is a - Tropheus brichardi - Kipili, Ulwile, or even Ujiji.  The peachy cheek tells me more likely Kipili but you will not be able to know for sure until it gets into Adult color at about 3.5" or more.

The very last picture has a black and red fish in the top.  This fish looks like: Tropheus moorii "sp.black" - Caramba Red Head

The last picture of the first set is very difficult to tell.  I can tell you that it is : Tropheus moorii "sp.red" - Chipimbi, Chimba, Kachese, Moliro or some other sp.red type.

The bright red fish that is in your 1st, 5th, and 6th pctures is also a : Tropheus moorii "sp.red" - Moliro most lilkely from the brightness of the color, but it is also very hard to tell because of their small size.  It could be one of the other bright red fish at this time.

So, you have some things to think about on what to do.  Judging from the photos most of your fish look 2.5 to 3" and this gives your about 2-3 months to figure out which you will seperate out. Your tanks look very nice. Your Duboisi are a complete safe mix as long as you do not mix them with another Duboisi type.  So, what I mean by that is, you could mix your Duboisi with any of the other Tropheus in your moorii tank and be completely safe.  What I would do, is consider another tank for seperating out the differnt sp.red and sp.black fish.

On the waterchange, I would recomend 30% every week, or 50% every 2 weeks.  If your already doing 15-25% weekly, then stick to doing more like 25% every week, than 15%.  You filter maintenance on your XP3 needs to be aboout every 2 months or so.  Your probably cleaning the sponges on your powerheads every week or 2-weeks which is most likely about right.

As for feeding Tropheus Treats, I would only feed once in a while like once a week. I feed mine seaweed, romaine lettuce, mysis shrimp, krill, frozen peas, blanched zucchini, and spinach. Frozen brine is not real safe, because it can get very slimy and can cause problems.  Live brine would be better, but it is a pain to keep up with in my opinion.

Between the Hikari Excel, and the spirulina flakes you got them covered nutrional wise.  If you want to feed frozen mysis or brine shrimp once a week, its not a big deal just use some moderation on it.  The shells need to be rough, that is why krill or mysis is much better than brine, and all three would be best live if possible.

The spirulina flakes is always the best food to start out on and getting them adjusted and acclimated to your conditions.

Do not be scared about the pH.  As long as your not getting below 7.4 they can handle it, but it is so much better and safer for them to be 8.0 or better.  If your pH is below 7.4 I would start adjusting it up slowly over a week or so depending on how low it is.

Do you happen to know what the pH is at now?

Hope this helps..

Geoff

[imagirlgeek]

Re: Step by Step increasing pH safely

I fell asleep watching Hero's or I would have posted back earlier.  

Wow, thanks so much Geoff.  So I've got some deciding to do.  We've got a 125 in the garage we've been trying to figure out where to put and what to put in it.  We've also got a 55 housing baby fronts at the moment, but we are slowly moving those into the larger tanks as they grow enough to be moved.  So, separating the moorii's out to avoid hybrids is not going to be a problem.  I do not like interbreeding either.  I have to say that I am a little disappointed because all of them were bought as Moorii, and I don't really want to have a lone Brichardi.  Hmmm...I'm either going to have to expand on the Brichardi or trade him in on a Moorii I've already got.

Thank you for ID'ing them.  That is really going to help going forward.  And thank you for the options on food.  Veggie's it is.  That's cool...we can eat the same food.   I'm going to stay away from the brine because I'm with you, they are a pain to keep.  I've hatched some a couple of times, but it was really more trouble than it's worth.

The duboisi tank is at pH 8.0 and the other tank is at 7.6...as of last night, so I don't imagine there's been a change.  I'll keep an eye on it over the next few weeks and see how it goes with the water changes.  

I'm sure I'll be asking for your advice again, but if you ever think of anything you think I may need to know, feel free to PM me...or better yet, post it and then PM me to let me know where the info is, so everyone can benefit from the information!  I'm an information junkie and will always be appreciative of any knowledge/experience you want to pass on!

Thank you thank you thank you!  

[eklikewhoa]

Re: Step by Step increasing pH safely

I feed strictly NewLifeSpectrum cichlid formula with an occasional feed of thera+A.....no frozens for my fishies.

With water changes I honestly prefer to test for nitrates before the water change and let that determine how much to change and let that be the least amount to change but a weekly 40-50% does well.

The Moorii you have if you got it from T&T....from what I saw in the tank.... bemba/pemba, uwiles(some were coloring up or should we saw losing color), kirizia, and some sort of sp. Red which look similar to moliros or ndole bay.

[imagirlgeek]

Re: Step by Step increasing pH safely

Oh yeah!!  Paul (?) at T&T had mentioned that one of his customers fed their Trophs one of the Spectrum foods but couldn't remember which one.  He said he'd ask the next time he saw them.  Was this person you?!

And yes, I'm with you.  I always test my water before any maintenance, and then I put it in a database so I can watch any trends (go ahead and laugh, I'm used to it).  It's my fish related OCD.